Lockdowns

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Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
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But this government can sign up to a no deal Brexit which is already costing £ Billions and will cost £ Billions more.? And they have also spaffed £ Billions more employing the serial failures such as Serco, Crapita, PWC (aka Pretty Woeful Company), EY etc using consultants on a daily rate that most people would give their right arm to be paid per month.

Yes but all those instances are defined events in their own right. At what point does guaranteeing wages on furlough transfer to all those who are on benefits and to what extent will it be used as the basis for the rest of the country as they move to tier 3? It's an impossible ask. If you asked the working population to give a portion of their salaries to those on furlough there would be uproar, but those of the sorts of costs in taxation that could arise from this level of spending. The numbers are truly vast and coming on top of what has already been spent and what is already committed, it is never going to happen.

I think the focus should not be on the tier level, but impressing on people the need to behave !! No increase in tier or lockdowns will solve the problem if people don't use their common sense !
 

James Wood

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Jun 1, 2017
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Yes but all those instances are defined events in their own right. At what point does guaranteeing wages on furlough transfer to all those who are on benefits and to what extent will it be used as the basis for the rest of the country as they move to tier 3? It's an impossible ask. If you asked the working population to give a portion of their salaries to those on furlough there would be uproar, but those of the sorts of costs in taxation that could arise from this level of spending. The numbers are truly vast and coming on top of what has already been spent and what is already committed, it is never going to happen.

I think the focus should not be on the tier level, but impressing on people the need to behave !! No increase in tier or lockdowns will solve the problem if people don't use their common sense !
On the latter point I agree with you. But I just do not know how many families will be able to feed themselves, heat their homes, pay the rent / mortgage etc on 2/3 of their wages. The benefits system just does not react quickly enough to enable the gap to be plugged so there is going to be many 0000’s of people - including children - who are going to be Really badly hit
 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
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On the latter point I agree with you. But I just do not know how many families will be able to feed themselves, heat their homes, pay the rent / mortgage etc on 2/3 of their wages. The benefits system just does not react quickly enough to enable the gap to be plugged so there is going to be many 0000’s of people - including children - who are going to be Really badly hit

I agree it's going to be a really torrid time for some families, but suspect that 2/3 wages topped up by universal credit where appropriate would still leave most people better off than if they were just receiving benefits
 

Ben

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Jul 28, 2013
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Llandudno Junction
I don't think the fight is about whether or not Manchester will go into tier 3 - its just at what price. Burnham wants all wages guaranteed 100% and no government can afford to, or will ever, sign up to that precedent
No, Burnham wants all wages at furlough level as we saw in March. If you’re asking people to once again not work the least you can do is provide them with the right financial support. People can’t pay 2/3 of their bills. Simply saying wages can then be topped up with Universal Credit, where some people have to wait five weeks for payment, isn’t good enough. All of this while you can once again get evicted from your home.
Typical heartless and cruel Tories who have mismanaged this crisis from the start. I hope that when we do have another general election the voters punish them in the way they deserve.
 

Knutsfordian

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Dec 18, 2014
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I don't think the government is being heartless and cruel.

The government has spent something like £200 billion supporting services, jobs and businesses during this pandemic. To describe that as heartless and cruel is way off the mark. There has to be a balance between providing support and providing sustainable public finance and taxation. If taxes went up to pay for the pandemic there would be uproar as it it would be seen to be hitting people during a recession - but at some point it will have to be paid for somewhere.
 
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Ben

Too much time on my hands
Jul 28, 2013
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Llandudno Junction
I don't think the government is being heartless and cruel.

The government has spent something like £200 billion supporting services, jobs and businesses during this pandemic. To describe that as heartless and cruel is way off the mark. There has to be a balance between providing support and providing sustainable public finance and taxation. If taxes went up to pay for the pandemic there would be uproar as it it would be seen to be hitting people during a recession - but at some point it will have to be paid for somewhere.
I wouldn’t expect you to criticise the Tories, Knutsfordian.

Not saying the Tories have done everything wrong. The furlough scheme was a success, as to a lesser extent was the scheme for the self-employed, and of course businesses have had grant support.

However the decision to wind down furlough by the end of this month and replace it with a less generous scheme is in my mind the wrong one. If you’re going to tell people they can’t work (again), then the least the government can do is support them. After all it is the government putting these workers out of work with the decisions they have made on lockdowns. I’d like to see some of these Tory ministers living on £800 a month and having to pay bills that don’t go down by 1/3.

You mention about things having to be paid for, I’m afraid that’s the reality of the situation. We’re in the biggest crisis since the Second World War and the government should put their hands in their pockets. I’m sure people would understand.

I know Tories are ideologically against too much state intervention but unprecedented times call for unprecedented action. I fully support Labour and SNP in wanting furlough to return for people like my sister who will once again face not being able to work in the pub she works in.
 
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Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
1,037
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I wouldn’t expect you to criticise the Tories, Knutsfordian.

Not saying the Tories have done everything wrong. The furlough scheme was a success, as to a lesser extent was the scheme for the self-employed, and of course businesses have had grant support.

However the decision to wind down furlough by the end of this month and replace it with a less generous scheme is in my mind the wrong one. If you’re going to tell people they can’t work (again), then the least the government can do is support them. After all it is the government putting these workers out of work with the decisions they have made on lockdowns. I’d like to see some of these Tory ministers living on £800 a month and having to pay bills that don’t go down by 1/3.

You mention about things having to be paid for, I’m afraid that’s the reality of the situation. We’re in the biggest crisis since the Second World War and the government should put their hands in their pockets. I’m sure people would understand.

I know Tories are ideologically against too much state intervention but unprecedented times call for unprecedented action. I fully support Labour and SNP in wanting furlough to return for people like my sister who will once again face not being able to work in the pub she works in.
Firstly, as I have said elsewhere, I think everyone feels for families that are struggling and those unfortunate people who are continually affected by loss of work and wages - so best wishes to your sister and all others in a similar situation.

Its not a question of criticism, but what is sustainable. It has been clear for a while that the government was eager to get people back to work and then tackle local outbreaks, because the national schemes introduced in the spring were unaffordable in the long term. It is debateable what constitutes "long term" , but I think the government put all its' eggs in one basket in the spring lockdown, mistakenly believing that it could break the pandemic and then keep it under control. That has proved to be incorrect. Having spent vast sums of money in the first wave and now knowing that this cycle of fierce outbreaks and gradual declines is likely to be repeated until there is a vaccine, the government must keep something in reserve. It is also facing a collapse in tax receipts on the other side of the book. So the harsh reality is that the initial furlough scheme could not be sustained and if the pandemic persists I wouldn't be surprised if support continued to decline and revert to benefit levels. Some people in government have very tough and unpalatable decisions to make
 

Andy

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Jul 28, 2013
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Bit lengthy, but an interesting read

 

toddyb

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Dec 23, 2014
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If people are to get 2/3 of their wage,do you think M.Ps should get a increase in pay?.
 
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Andy

Too much time on my hands
Jul 28, 2013
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Cases in Manchester have been falling since the start of October. Why the push to lockdown?

D654820A-97ED-41BE-920A-9232EDE0B62B.png
 
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Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
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Bit lengthy, but an interesting read

I tried to read the whole piece but lost the will to live after a while. The bottom line is that scientists don't agree with each other and so how are those of us who aren't scientists supposed to differentiate between them? It is well written and a good read - but who is actually telling us the absolute truth rather than just their opinion?
 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
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Cases in Manchester have been falling since the start of October. Why the push to lockdown?

View attachment 2057
The ONS have published some stuff that estimates circa 350,000 people in the UK had the virus in the last week. So how many people actually have the virus and tested positive for it and how many people have the virus ands are asymptomatic is just not known. The data on which all the decisions are being made seems to be a guesstimate at best. The bottom line is - follow the guidelines, keep your head down, have a beer and go home