Lockdowns

[Ben]

Has anyone seen the pics of crowded shoppers coming from London and Newcastle? Circulating all over social media...
Fearing a January lockdown already.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Yep all over the media - which plays right into why we have lockdowns - because some ( well quite a lot actually) people cannot use their common sense - hence why we have been saying for a while that the messages about social distancing and reducing social contact need to be more to the forefront of communications

 

[Ben]

Yep all over the media - which plays right into why we have lockdowns - because some ( well quite a lot actually) people cannot use their common sense - hence why we have been saying for a while that the messages about social distancing and reducing social contact need to be more to the forefront of communications

To be fair to folk, they are only doing what they’ve been asked to do and that’s shop to support struggling businesses. The scenes on the pictures are no different to any other Christmas.

 

[Knutsfordian]

To be fair to folk, they are only doing what they’ve been asked to do and that’s shop to support struggling businesses. The scenes on the pictures are no different to any other Christmas.

But this isn't any other Christmas !

It shows how many people are complete numpties and cannot manage themselves.

Its also based on an economic model where we need pubs, shops etc to be rammed in order to make any profit. Remember in days gone by where small corner shops survived on spend in the local streets and some "locals" were just that and little more than a front room in someone's house ! Mass gatherings and crowds are to be avoided so god knows why anyone one would organise a Xmas market !!

People need to find a near empty pub, have a couple of pints and go home. not congregate with the masses !!

 

[Ben]

But this isn't any other Christmas !

It shows how many people are complete numpties and cannot manage themselves.

Its also based on an economic model where we need pubs, shops etc to be rammed in order to make any profit. Remember in days gone by where small corner shops survived on spend in the local streets and some "locals" were just that and little more than a front room in someone's house ! Mass gatherings and crowds are to be avoided so god knows why anyone one would organise a Xmas market !!

People need to find a near empty pub, have a couple of pints and go home. not congregate with the masses !!

Your last point is a good one. It makes no sense that Covid secure pubs with test and trace can’t open in Tier 3 areas, yet shoppers can parade outside Harrods with none of this and no masks and social distancing. Surely better to spread out folk so they’ve got more to do than shopping?

Appreciate that some folk clearly need to use their common sense more and sadly you’ll always have people like this. However, government public health messaging could maybe be clearer and as I’ve said, it’s Boris telling them to go and shop. If you give people an inch they’ll run a mile. I honestly think scenes such as outside Harrods are what Boris wants, as it’s money for the economy in his eyes.

One other point I’d make is that I do sometimes think pictures circulating on social media of crowded shoppers are unhelpful. We saw the same in the summer with the beaches. They perpetuate an agenda that most folk are breaking the rules (most aren’t) and play into the hands of those who want more lockdowns, even though there is scant evidence that the second one has done much good with case numbers still at 15k a day and back up to the levels they were in Wales before the Welsh circuit breaker. In that case, why would a third lockdown be anything different?

 

[James Wood]

Your last point is a good one. It makes no sense that Covid secure pubs with test and trace can’t open in Tier 3 areas, yet shoppers can parade outside Harrods with none of this and no masks and social distancing. Surely better to spread out folk so they’ve got more to do than shopping?

Appreciate that some folk clearly need to use their common sense more and sadly you’ll always have people like this. However, government public health messaging could maybe be clearer and as I’ve said, it’s Boris telling them to go and shop. If you give people an inch they’ll run a mile. I honestly think scenes such as outside Harrods are what Boris wants, as it’s money for the economy in his eyes.

One other point I’d make is that I do sometimes think pictures circulating on social media of crowded shoppers are unhelpful. We saw the same in the summer with the beaches. They perpetuate an agenda that most folk are breaking the rules (most aren’t) and play into the hands of those who want more lockdowns, even though there is scant evidence that the second one has done much good with case numbers still at 15k a day and back up to the levels they were in Wales before the Welsh circuit breaker. In that case, why would a third lockdown be anything different?

Case numbers may be at 15k a day, but they are still way below where they were before the lockdown. Why can’t you just accept the simple fact that if you restrict mixing of people - i.e. lockdowns, fire-breaks, call them what you want, the result is the same. Infections fall. It is the same wether it is the plague, Ebola, COVID, SARS, smallpox, measles et al. Viruses spread wherever people congregate.

 

[James Wood]

But this isn't any other Christmas !

It shows how many people are complete numpties and cannot manage themselves.

Its also based on an economic model where we need pubs, shops etc to be rammed in order to make any profit. Remember in days gone by where small corner shops survived on spend in the local streets and some "locals" were just that and little more than a front room in someone's house ! Mass gatherings and crowds are to be avoided so god knows why anyone one would organise a Xmas market !!

People need to find a near empty pub, have a couple of pints and go home. not congregate with the masses !!

Knutsfordian - totally agree with your post. But hasn’t the elimination of the local corner shop, pub, butcher, post office etc been driven by the mantra of right wing economics that says that bigger is better, more efficient and provides shareholders with better dividends? The legacy of the Thatcher era has come back to haunt our High Streets. Takeovers, the drive to make everything slicker, squeezing the margins of the supply chain, screwing workers left, right and centre.
And the shining example of this? Sir Phillip Green. Can’t believe he was Knighted whilst a Labour government was in charge

 

[Alan M]

An economy built on retail consumerism and the hospitality sector was always built on sand, and this pandemic has exposed it for the nonsense it is.
As for the Eat Out to Spread It About scheme ... a gimmick designed to placate restaurant & big pub owners, one that cost taxpayers a small fortune, and the govt has probably realised (too late) that it was a mistake in health terms, so that sector is paying the penalty.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Knutsfordian - totally agree with your post. But hasn’t the elimination of the local corner shop, pub, butcher, post office etc been driven by the mantra of right wing economics that says that bigger is better, more efficient and provides shareholders with better dividends? The legacy of the Thatcher era has come back to haunt our High Streets. Takeovers, the drive to make everything slicker, squeezing the margins of the supply chain, screwing workers left, right and centre.
And the shining example of this? Sir Phillip Green. Can’t believe he was Knighted whilst a Labour government was in charge

Definitely going off thread here, but yes James there is a lot of truth in what you say with the downfall of the great manufacturing industries - aided and abetted it has to be said not only by Thatcher, but by a union culture that was destroying the businesses that paid their wages. Not only has industry not recovered, neither has the union movement and what influence it still exerts on the Labour party is seen as being a negative and poisonous relationship.

Hopefully, out of the EU, we will see a return to an economy that contains a greater element of manufacturing and regenerates some of our undoubted skills in engineering and shipbuilding. as an example

 

[Ben]

Case numbers may be at 15k a day, but they are still way below where they were before the lockdown. Why can’t you just accept the simple fact that if you restrict mixing of people - i.e. lockdowns, fire-breaks, call them what you want, the result is the same. Infections fall. It is the same wether it is the plague, Ebola, COVID, SARS, smallpox, measles et al. Viruses spread wherever people congregate.

Cases are down, I’ll give you that, but not as much as anyone would have hoped. They’re already creeping back up and too early to say that’s because lockdown has ended.

Accept that restricting mixing of people will lead to a fall in infections. All I want is balance so the virus is controlled but we can keep as much of life going as possible.

 

[James Wood]

Cases are down, I’ll give you that, but not as much as anyone would have hoped. They’re already creeping back up and too early to say that’s because lockdown has ended.

Accept that restricting mixing of people will lead to a fall in infections. All I want is balance so the virus is controlled but we can keep as much of life going as possible.

And so say all of us Ben! My view has always been to ensure that the NHS isn’t over-run by trying to cope with the worst impacts of COVID. In the long run it will have better outcomes for the health of the general population but in the short term it will have massive impacts on the economy and business as a whole

 

[Knutsfordian]

Lock downs, circuit breakers, whatever you want to call them, have all been shown to be short term temporary solutions and the only thing that works (besides the vaccine) is social distancing - so why, oh why do people gather in crowds the first chance they get ! If we want o keep business moving, keep social distancing !!

 

[Knutsfordian]

Had to have a real laugh today with Kay Burley being taken off air for breaching Covid rules. All these self righteous prats who harp on about "holding the government to account" and rant endlessly at government ministers are actually worse than anyone else in their decision making. Oh the irony of all those adverts on sky with Kay Burley looking the right hard interrogator with Beth Rigby as her bitch. Couldn't make it up #careerover

 

[Andy]

Is there any point looking at Case numbers?

Below is some research from Cambridge Uni. Of all 10 positive cases that came back, they all turned out to be false positives.

The case numbers could be very inaccurate...

 

[Knutsfordian]

so how many of the negatives were false negatives? No matter

I am not sure the billions of £ sterling thrown at testing are worth the money, but the WHO is better qualified to make that assessment rather than me and they obviously think it is the answer

 

[Ben]

And so say all of us Ben! My view has always been to ensure that the NHS isn’t over-run by trying to cope with the worst impacts of COVID. In the long run it will have better outcomes for the health of the general population but in the short term it will have massive impacts on the economy and business as a whole

Yes and the NHS hasn’t been overwhelmed so far and I’m sure it won’t be. Not even any need for those Nightingale hospitals. Agree with you re the massive impacts on the economy and business and we’ll await to see whether we’ve seen better health outcomes. There will be many people who die of non-Covid deaths from lockdowns.

Little evidence that the Welsh circuit breaker did much good. Cases and deaths are right back up in Wales. This was the policy Labour wanted in this country!

 

[James Wood]

Yes and the NHS hasn’t been overwhelmed so far and I’m sure it won’t be. Not even any need for those Nightingale hospitals. Agree with you re the massive impacts on the economy and business and we’ll await to see whether we’ve seen better health outcomes. There will be many people who die of non-Covid deaths from lockdowns.

Little evidence that the Welsh circuit breaker did much good. Cases and deaths are right back up in Wales. This was the policy Labour wanted in this country!

But I think that the situation in Wales has a great deal to do with the behaviour- or lack of it - by many people. The lockdown in places like Leicester, Liverpool et al prove that the majority work

 

[James Wood]

The NHS was never over run and Nightingale hospitals stood empty.

Scotland locked down longer, care out of lockdown slower and is the worst off nation in the union.

Greater Manchester has been under tighter restrictions for months, yet cases are climbing.

The inconvenient truth for many is Sweden is looking very good indeed. Stockholm and Manchester are similar sized cities, and both have a population density of about 12,000 per square mile. Stockholm protected the old, rather than a full lockdown, they’ve faired far better than Manchester.

There is no evidence lock downs work. End of.

Sweden - Now 7000 deaths in a country of 10 million people. Reported on R4 Today programme that ITU beds in Stockholm are 99% full, almost all with COVID.
?. Some ‘inconvenient truth’

 

[Andy]

Sweden - Now 7000 deaths in a country of 10 million people. Reported on R4 Today programme that ITU beds in Stockholm are 99% full, almost all with COVID.
?. Some ‘inconvenient truth’

Don’t think you’ve got my point yet...

Revisit excess deaths in Sweden in 5 years time. People there are not missing hospital appointments.

Lockdowns are short-termism. Sacrificing tens or hundreds of thousands in the long term.

Lockdowns will kill far more than Covid will in the long run.

An inconvenient truth....

 

[Ben]

But I think that the situation in Wales has a great deal to do with the behaviour- or lack of it - by many people. The lockdown in places like Leicester, Liverpool et al prove that the majority work

But I think that the situation in Wales has a great deal to do with the behaviour- or lack of it - by many people. The lockdown in places like Leicester, Liverpool et al prove that the majority work

Maybe but then the situation in Wales could indicate lockdowns don’t work. Namely that they just delay the spread of the virus which returns once you open up again, and so the cycle goes. It’s not a long-term solution as such.
Mass testing rather than lockdown would appear to be the reason for declining cases in Liverpool and well Leicester, have near enough been in lockdown restrictions since March, so they can’t be working that well.
Cases in the UK now back up to 20k today and rose in London and the South East throughout lockdown. Hospitalisations also up in England. All this beggars the question of what the latest lockdown has achieved?