Lockdowns

[Ben]

Pretty clear to me that Tier 3 = no spectators

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Not actually clear at all. My understanding is this applies for ‘elite’ football.

The journalist Ollie Bayliss has tweeted that the FA will meet with leagues at Step 5 and 6 this evening. He said the leagues hope for clarity over the rules on travel, fans and clubhouses.

Incredible that we’ve not had any clarity but it’s what I’ve come to expect. Would be strange if it wasn’t a case of business as it were before, as the situation was worse before the lockdown and fans in tier 3 areas could attend games. Season will be over if this isn’t allowed.

 

[Ben]

Ben - are you for real? Cases in Greater Manchester were racing away just a few weeks ago. Tougher restrictions introduced and cases go down because we humans - who spread the virus to one another very readily - are having less contact with one another. The evidence is overwhelming.

James, what do you have to say about Leicester which has been in some form of lockdown from the very start but is still high for infection rates? What also do you have to say for Kent which started lockdown in tier 1 and has now ended up in tier 3? Not much evidence of them working in these places.

Strange decision to put Manchester into tier 3 with its falling infection rates yet London (where most in the government live) and which has a higher R rate, gets put into tier 2. It would seem to be a case of one rule for us northerners and a totally different one for the south. No doubt Manchester is being punished for Andy Burnham’s protestations last time round!

Some 98.7 per cent of people are in tiers 2 or 3, lockdown in all but name, and with it all those businesses especially hospitality, that will continue to suffer.

 

[Alan M]

Not actually clear at all. My understanding is this applies for ‘elite’ football.

The journalist Ollie Bayliss has tweeted that the FA will meet with leagues at Step 5 and 6 this evening. He said the leagues hope for clarity over the rules on travel, fans and clubhouses.

Incredible that we’ve not had any clarity but it’s what I’ve come to expect. Would be strange if it wasn’t a case of business as it were before, as the situation was worse before the lockdown and fans in tier 3 areas could attend games. Season will be over if this isn’t allowed.

It applies to all spectator sports in tier 3.
Confirmation from that meeting tonight will be published shortly.

But the FA are hell bent on keeping the Vase going apparently.

 

[Ben]

It applies to all spectator sports in tier 3.
Confirmation from that meeting tonight will be published shortly.

But the FA are hell bent on keeping the Vase going apparently.

Seen it. Absolutely ridiculous. No common sense or logic in this.

 

[Alan M]

One upside ... we could finally play last season's Macron final, now Liverpool is Tier 2.

 

[James Wood]

James, what do you have to say about Leicester which has been in some form of lockdown from the very start but is still high for infection rates? What also do you have to say for Kent which started lockdown in tier 1 and has now ended up in tier 3? Not much evidence of them working in these places.

Strange decision to put Manchester into tier 3 with its falling infection rates yet London (where most in the government live) and which has a higher R rate, gets put into tier 2. It would seem to be a case of one rule for us northerners and a totally different one for the south. No doubt Manchester is being punished for Andy Burnham’s protestations last time round!

Some 98.7 per cent of people are in tiers 2 or 3, lockdown in all but name, and with it all those businesses especially hospitality, that will continue to suffer.

I say that people have clearly been irresponsible and haven’t followed the rules! As I’ve said many times before, the virus spreads by human contact. Restrict that then you restrict its spread. It really is as simple as that.

 

[Basement]

But the FA are hell bent on keeping the Vase going apparently.

In the vase, some clubs will have to play 2 rounds in 2 weeks, but for those clubs who have yet to play their first round games, they will have to play 3 rounds in 2 weeks. I would say that is pretty hellbent.

 

[Nicki]

The Tories are revolting. I’ll say!

Reminds me of the classic Carry On Don’t Lose Your Head line.

The peasants are revolting
I know, I’ve smelt some of them!

 

[Andy]

The vote for these ridiculous restrictions has been passed. A sizeable Tory rebellion, but not enough to stop it.

Labours choice to abstain was a disgrace. What signal does that send out?

- Do they just not care?
- Are they incapable of making a decision?
- Or is it just political games? Abstaining because they know it’ll pass if they do, but they can attempt to wash their hands of it when the backlash comes. Absolute cowards.

 

[James Wood]

The vote for these ridiculous restrictions has been passed. A sizeable Tory rebellion, but not enough to stop it.

Labours choice to abstain was a disgrace. What signal does that send out?

- Do they just not care?
- Are they incapable of making a decision?
- Or is it just political games? Abstaining because they know it’ll pass if they do, but they can attempt to wash their hands of it when the backlash comes. Absolute cowards.

It really is simple Andy.
Labour have real and justifiable concerns about the proposals, particularly in relation to financial support for key sectors. So abstaining was a way to demonstrate this. However, given the huge back bench rebellion against Johnson they did not want to leave the country without any measures in place - as would have been the case if they would have voted against the proposals because along with the Tory rebels the proposals would not have got through.
I have to say that given the complete Horlicks that this shower have made of managing the COVID crisis and the Brexit shambles, I find it strange that you can only find time to criticise Labour!

 

[Knutsfordian]

I think it's trying to keep a foot either side of public opinion for and against a lockdown, now they can play both sides of the argument against Boris Johnson.

Listening to Labour folks on the Sunday political programmes, they really, really didn't offer up any alternatives. They are still harping on about fixing test and trace (which will take months if ever) and compensation payments.

The reality is that the government will now go for broke rolling out vaccines and hope that this drives down infections to the point where they can start to row back on tier levels before the beginning of Feb. If they can get the AstraZenica vaccine approved next week that will fly out of the door because its easier to administer and we will see massive call ups of peeps to get it done.

 

[Andy]

It really is simple Andy.
Labour have real and justifiable concerns about the proposals, particularly in relation to financial support for key sectors. So abstaining was a way to demonstrate this. However, given the huge back bench rebellion against Johnson they did not want to leave the country without any measures in place - as would have been the case if they would have voted against the proposals because along with the Tory rebels the proposals would not have got through.
I have to say that given the complete Horlicks that this shower have made of managing the COVID crisis and the Brexit shambles, I find it strange that you can only find time to criticise Labour!

Think you’ll have to take those red tinted glasses off again ?

I’ve been very critical of this governments awful approach to these Covid restrictions. Don’t worry about that.

But Labour is indefensible. They’re an absolute joke. The two biggest issues the country has faced in recent times is this Pandemic and Brexit, and for both they’ve sat on the fence (Keir Starmer responsible for both!). How can anyone consider them a government in waiting if they can’t even make decisions when in opposition. Theyre making themselves irrelevant.

 

[Ben]

Andy, you know myself and you agree on this, but I do wish you’d aim the same criticisms you have of the Labour Party on the government, who have actually devised the tier policy. ? Starmer has done a good job so far as the polls clearly show.

As a Labour voter, I too am disappointed at the party abstaining and feel it’s the easy way out. Fair play to the small number of Labour MPs for opposing these measures, including Andrew Gwynne, a local MP to where I live.

I see that Jeremy Corbyn opposes the measures also. Maybe just maybe the government would have lost that vote last night if he was still leader of Labour?

 

[Andy]

Andy, you know myself and you agree on this, but I do wish you’d aim the same criticisms you have of the Labour Party on the government, who have actually devised the tier policy. ? Starmer has done a good job so far as the polls clearly show.

As a Labour voter, I too am disappointed at the party abstaining and feel it’s the easy way out. Fair play to the small number of Labour MPs for opposing these measures, including Andrew Gwynne, a local MP to where I live.

I see that Jeremy Corbyn opposes the measures also. Maybe just maybe the government would have lost that vote last night if he was still leader of Labour?

I can’t criticise the government for abstaining because they didn’t abstain....

Spinless Jellyfish that can’t make a decision are worse than clowns that make the wrong decision!

The fact of the matter is, the Governments own back benches are offering a better opposition than the opposition are at the moment!

 

[Ben]

I can’t criticise the government for abstaining because they didn’t abstain....

Spinless Jellyfish that can’t make a decision are worse than clowns that make the wrong decision!

The fact of the matter is, the Governments own back benches are offering a better opposition than the opposition are at the moment!

Appreciate that but it’s the government who ultimately devise policy and they are responsible for the whole approach to the pandemic from the start. The buck mainly lies with them. Agree that we’ve seen more opposition from the Tory backbenchers on this issue and I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with them and Nigel Farage!

I think Labour could have made a principled opposition to the new Tier system on the basis of the unfair way in which they’ve been allocated. No way should GM be in Tier 3 and they were because Andy Burnham kicked off a fuss. Also the lack of financial support which is being offered, particularly to hospitality who are having to bear the brunt of these measures.

Seems like Labour took the fence sitting option ultimately, rather like with Brexit.

 

[Knutsfordian]

There are two key points being interwoven here.

Firstly should there be a Tier system at all - if not what's the alternative?

Secondly, If there is to be a Tier system how are the areas defined?

On the first point, I haven't heard any alternative other than circuit breakers, complete lockdowns, or a complete free for all. Given circuit breakers are just a stop/start version of lockdowns (and don't work) and the remaining options are unacceptable either to the majority of the population or the scientists and medics - we need a tier system.

So how are the areas defined? I think that really gets to be the contentious issue, with say all of Lancashire in Tier3 when there are areas of Ribble Valley that one would think fit within Tier 1. I think the fundamental issue is that the experts think that people in Tier 3 will not stay in their Tier 3 area and travel to lower Tier areas to enjoy the enhanced freedoms taking the virus with them. So the catchment areas are built to contain groupings within their tiers and make it difficult to travel long distances to get into a lower tier area. I have seen threads on social media where people in Tier 3 areas are saying that they are going to pubs and restaurants in Tier 2 as travel is only "not advised" rather than "prohibited".

We have to learn that the only way we can control this virus is through reducing social interaction. If people in high infection areas stayed in their area, I suspect the Tiers would be narrowly defined. They won't, so the areas are enlarged to inhibit travel.

With the news that vaccines are on the way from next week, there will be a real clamour to get tier 3 areas vaccinated first to get infections down and restrictions lifted. It could be a really turbulent couple of months ahead.

 

[Alan M]

Agree with that, except final para - because I think it is pretty clear that the priority list isn't goin gto be based on geography.

The added concern in deciding tiers is that both patterns of normal daily travel (work, study etc) as well as catchment areas for hospitals which then have to deal with more severe cases don't easily let smaller units be drawn. There will always be some areas which look as if they are in the wrong tier, but essentially this is being done to try to get a better grip on the virus before opening the floodgates for 5 days over Christmas. Otherwise the starting position on 23rd Dec is going to be so high that in January everywhere will be struggling to cope again.

The main roll-out of vaccines (presuming the others get regulatory approval as well) isn't going to be until the New Year anyway, and it takes a month for a vaccine to reach maximum immunity. So it's going to be a while before we can fully relax measures.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Agree with that, except final para - because I think it is pretty clear that the priority list isn't goin gto be based on geography.

The added concern in deciding tiers is that both patterns of normal daily travel (work, study etc) as well as catchment areas for hospitals which then have to deal with more severe cases don't easily let smaller units be drawn. There will always be some areas which look as if they are in the wrong tier, but essentially this is being done to try to get a better grip on the virus before opening the floodgates for 5 days over Christmas. Otherwise the starting position on 23rd Dec is going to be so high that in January everywhere will be struggling to cope again.

The main roll-out of vaccines (presuming the others get regulatory approval as well) isn't going to be until the New Year anyway, and it takes a month for a vaccine to reach maximum immunity. So it's going to be a while before we can fully relax measures.

Yep I agree the current priorities are based on age, medical need, job risks etc, but I think the clamour from the business community to get tier 3 restrictions lifted will result in pressure to add geography to the mix. Time will tell

 

[Andy]

Interesting statistics about excess mortality in 15-64 year olds.

Sweden didn’t lockdown. Appointments and diagnosis of disease weren’t missed. There has r been an increase in suicide there either.

Strong evidence to suggest that the governments approach is far more dangerous to the young than Covid is.

 

[Knutsfordian]

I am not sure its a matter of policy or whether people are avoiding going to se their GPs during the pandemic, sometimes with catastrophic consequences plus the loss of counseling/volunteer services. I am not sure whether Sweden is the only outlier, but clearly whatever the cause it's affecting more than just the UK