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General Election 2017

Who will you be voting for on June 8th

  • Conservative

    Votes: 15 32.6%

  • Labour

    Votes: 21 45.7%

  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 3 6.5%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 3 6.5%

  • Green

    Votes: 1 2.2%

  • Other

    Votes: 3 6.5%
  • Total voters
    46
Just because he called the party the Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei Deutschlands (national socialist workers' party) don't be taken in by the myth. He was an authoritarian nationalist right-wing fascist. He opposed, imprisoned, tortured and murdered all representatives of communist, socialist and liberal organisations (including my wife's grandfather), banned their parties and sought full totalitarian state control of political and public life backed up by militaristic force.
 
Toddy said:
Just a Question,is history repeating itself,is this not what happened in the late 1920's and early 1930's,just a Question,not a opinion.
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To answer your question, Toddy, yes, these are certainly worrying times where some comparisons can be drawn with the 1920s/1930s. Just look at the rise of extremist politicians and parties in the EU, where you have the likes of Le Pen in France, Geert Widers in Holland,
Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Alternative for Germany and Golden Dawn in Greece.

All these parties and leaders can be described to varying degrees as being of on the far-right and anti-immigrant, anti-Islam and anti-Semitic in their tone and with some of their policies, some of them can even be described as Neo-Nazi. All are profiting from a growing distrust in the political and business elite in hard economic times and all offer a populist message of the blaming the other, usually a minority group for their country's woes, so not so different to Hitler and the Nazis. I fear that any break-up of the EU, which has secured decades of unprecedented peace, could fuel the rise of these unsavoury parties and leaders further.

As for the comparisons between Hitler and Corbyn, I'm sure Corbyn would be greatly offended. I'm by no means Corbyn's biggest fan but whatever you think of him, he has been a life-long campaigner for social equality and human rights and to compare him to a man who murdered six million Jews is absurd. And Hitler was no socialist, he was of the extreme far-right and hated the idea of Socialism.
 
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The musings of a Lib Dem professor of English from 20 years ago do nothing to change my point of view, even if published in the Independent.

And believe it or not I have taken a look at his policies - his early 'career' was one of the key areas of my research in my early years working in universities here and in Germany
 
And you can't deny there are strong links to Socialism.

That's my point, though. You hard enough at anything in politics and you can draw parralells to stuff like that.
 
Not sure where all the comparisons to Corbyn and Hitler came from - but I don't think they are at all relevant and we are not on a downward spiral to 1930's politics supported by brown shirted thugs.

For me, the key issue of our time is getting out of the EU. Its an organisation that doesn't work, is on the verge of bankrupty with massive debts and has been responsible for the collapse of a number of economies - Greece being the prime example. The idea that the EU has been responsible for peace in Europe only holds true if you really believe another European war amongst member states was or is inevitable (which it isn't) and also ignore the Balkans war.

I think its inevitable that at some point the EU will break up. It will be a complete mess which we are far better out of now. There are large elements of the European population that are anti-EU and that cannot be ignored forever. Even if Macron wins the French election with a 60% share of the vote. it means that 40% of France has voted anti EU - and they were one of the founders!! The EU has to wake up and stop pretending that they can carry on regardless.

The EU needs reform and has to develop a framework that nation states can be part of, or not as they so wish. They have to stop binding in countries and limiting their means of exit. In any normal contract there is an exit process that may almost be as long as the main contract itself, so that companies know what they need to do to change suppliers - this is no different. The bottom line is though that the unelected EU commissioners want more integration not less !!

Holding the government to account - what a wonderful phrase that covers a range of devious intentions from trying to renegotiate the negotiations to scuppering them all together. It may have been better to have had an all party negotiating team, but given the stance of say the Libdems who want to campaign to stay in the EU that's, never going to happen. How will we know if we got the "best deal"? We probably never will. As someone said elsewhere its a case of pinning the tail on whichever donkey you fancy and hoping for the best.
 
One question I think I'd ask myself is - which is bigger?

1. The difference between what the Tories and Labour will deliver on Brexit.
2. The difference between how each party will shaft us at home.

I'm happy with my assumption that the Tories are a safe bet for being the bigger shafters. So, to help me make my decision, can anyone on here please tell me what the outcome of future Brexit negotiations will be?

I'll keep checking back for answers. Ta.
 
Nicki said:
One question I think I'd ask myself is - which is bigger?

1. The difference between what the Tories and Labour will deliver on Brexit.
2. The difference between how each party will shaft us at home.

I'm happy with my assumption that the Tories are a safe bet for being the bigger shafters. So, to help me make my decision, can anyone on here please tell me what the outcome of future Brexit negotiations will be?

I'll keep checking back for answers. Ta.
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Until the manifestos come out who knows who will be the bigger "shafters", but I'd put money on Labour having aggressive Tax Rises.
 
Ben said:
I personally hope Macron is president. I think France and the rest of the EU and the world needs stability after Brexit, the election of Trump and the rise of populist, radical right and left-wing parties across Europe. It will also be good to see a Europhile and experienced negotiator win, as I think that will help Britain get the best deal possible from Brexit..
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Don't see how a pro eu president of France is going to get us a get good deal!?
I've never really followed politics as I just see a bunch of self centred liars who, in the majority, just seem to want to line their pockets as much as possible regardless of who suffers as a result!!
Perhaps if one of them would answer a question directly and honestly every now and then instead of skirting around the answer or going off in a completely different direction (usually pointing out the opposition faults rather than their own), then perhaps I'd have a respect for some of the leeches!!
The French are not as influential as some may think. Very much under the EU thumb and it has already been stated by many who are far more interested in politics than me, that Macron winning would not be a good thing for the uk.
Every time I've bothered to listen to what's unfolding (which seems to be more and more recently!!....surprising to me!!), I just get the feeling we are going to be made to suffer and grovel as much as possible for our audacity to leave the eu, and all regardless of its members and representatives!!
 
Andy said:
Until the manifestos come out who knows who will be the bigger "shafters", but I'd put money on Labour having aggressive Tax Rises.
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We have many, many years' of history to use as evidence for this one.
Not only do Tories shaft you, they often do it very sneakily. They are past masters of distracting you with one hand whilst shafting you with the other.
 
Blackie said:
Don't see how a pro eu president of France is going to get us a get good deal!?
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I think it will get us a good deal because Macron will know that it's in Britain, France's and the EU's best interests to secure close trading links. He was the economy minister for two years under the Hollande government and will have an idea of the workings of these deals and has also worked for the civil service. As for Le Pen, she has no such background and experience, and would not be interested in securing a good deal for Britain with the EU, as she doesn't even want the EU to exist and would celebrate its break-up, as all the other far-right parties and leaders would and Trump and Putin. Just look at the kinds of people who would revel in the EU's break-up, none are exactly the nicest of people. Is this really the kind of Europe we want, one broken up into a load of nation states run by extreme leaders and parties? Rather than through being round the decision table, compromise and working collectively together as part of the EU to get things done peacefully.

Blackie said:
The French are not as influential as some may think. Very much under the EU thumb and it has already been stated by many who are far more interested in politics than me, that Macron winning would not be a good thing for the uk.
Every time I've bothered to listen to what's unfolding (which seems to be more and more recently!!....surprising to me!!), I just get the feeling we are going to be made to suffer and grovel as much as possible for our audacity to leave the eu, and all regardless of its members and representatives!!
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Other than Germany, the French are probably the most influential so I'm not sure I'd agree with you there. And out of interest, who stated that Macron winning would not be a good thing for the UK? As for being made to suffer and grovel, I don't think that's true, but in any negotiation, you have to accept that the EU (not just Britain) are going to want a deal that's in their interests and that of its members. The EU will also want to deter other members from leaving if any similar situation arised in the future with let's say France and Holland. I do think it's a myth from the Brexiters though that the EU are out to get Britain. The simple truth is they're not, but rather our friends and allies, who we have turned our backs on.

As for Hitler being a Socialist, this seems to be an attempt from the right to smear the left and deny the undisputed facts of history.
 
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The trouble with looking for definitive answers is that you never get one. For example no one can say what the Brexit deal would look like, nor can anyone say what the future holds for the EU. You make an educated guess and that's all you can do. The bottom line is you wouldn't put your faith in Jeremy or Tiny Tim negotiating for you, would you?. It's leadership that will decide this election, no doubt in my view.

As for who shafts who the most - I think that answer depends on how far up the food chain you are. I think it was Dennis Healey who made the infamous comment about taxing the rich until the pips squeak (but then subsequently denied saying it) and the vast majority of voters in this country still don't trust Labour with the economy (whilst its also true that Labour have had some really excellent chancellors).
 
Have had so decent chancellors, correct.

Unfortunately their current Chancellor in John McDonnell is a very dangerous man to trust with the economy.

He openly admits to celebrating the financial crash of 2008. Not someone I trust to have my best interests in mind.

Just today, a Labour MP said "There's been no better time to borrow £500 Billion"

Not the most encouraging noises.
 
Andy - you seem very desperate to influence people to vote one way over others yet, at the same time, you seem very confident about what the result will be. The two aren't consistent states!!
 
Nicki said:
Andy - you seem very desperate to influence people to vote one way over others yet, at the same time, you seem very confident about what the result will be. The two aren't consistent states!!
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Just responding to Knutsfordians post, and other posts that interest me.

I shall refrain in future if this is a problem.
 
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