General Election 2017
- Thread starter Andy
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- Jun 24, 2013
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What in that analysis on the BBC site is pro or anti either Remain or Leave? Try reading it objectively.
And by "hammered from all sides", do you mean the right, the far right and the centre right? Or just the Daily Mail & co? There are enough complaints from the "other side" about it having a pro-Tory bias. If both sides are complaining, they've probably got it about right.
And by "hammered from all sides", do you mean the right, the far right and the centre right? Or just the Daily Mail & co? There are enough complaints from the "other side" about it having a pro-Tory bias. If both sides are complaining, they've probably got it about right.
- Jun 24, 2013
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- Jun 24, 2013
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I wonder if any of the majority gender of this country have voted in this forum poll.
(I haven't.)
And what do you mean 'real' polls. Are you suggesting this one isn't real. It's as real as the rest, just with a limitation or two, or three, or...
- Jul 28, 2013
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- #65
The Guardian were one of the first to point it out, nothing "Right" about them!
The Remain campaign were very cleaver. The identified from the onset that they needed to (wrongly) paint the EU referendum as a "Left V Right" question. They knew thats really the only way they had a chance.
When in reality, there was a number of "Left wing" reasons to leave...
I'm fed up of hearing the pro-Brexit camp and the right-wing, anti-EU press cheerleaded by the Daily Mail lambasting those who voted remain as 'remoaners', 'enemies of the people' and the worst and most chilling of all the terms... 'saboteurs.' I associate language such as this more with a dictatorship than a democracy, so who really is being undemocratic here? I don't think it's it's the Remainers.
Most Remainers are none of the terms I've mentioned above and just want to scrutinise and hold the government to account on the terms of Brexit and any deal they secure. What is so wrong with that? What is so wrong with the opposition doing the job they are supposed to - be it SNP, Lib Dem, Labour, Gina Miller - and challenge the government? Let's also remember that 3/4 of all MPs supported the triggering of Article 50 and 2/3 of the Lords, so who is trying to frustrate Brexit? Certainly not parliament, the Lords or those judges despite what May and the Daily Mail may say.
So May is basing her whole decision to hold a General Election on lies and in a bid to stifle parliament into silence. In her world, 'division' in parliament is a bad thing and order and control with an increased majority are what she really desires. Shame on her for holding this election for all the wrong reasons, namely to crush her opponents when they're already down and give herself a fabricated mandate for Brexit, when neither are needed in reality.
Most Remainers are none of the terms I've mentioned above and just want to scrutinise and hold the government to account on the terms of Brexit and any deal they secure. What is so wrong with that? What is so wrong with the opposition doing the job they are supposed to - be it SNP, Lib Dem, Labour, Gina Miller - and challenge the government? Let's also remember that 3/4 of all MPs supported the triggering of Article 50 and 2/3 of the Lords, so who is trying to frustrate Brexit? Certainly not parliament, the Lords or those judges despite what May and the Daily Mail may say.
So May is basing her whole decision to hold a General Election on lies and in a bid to stifle parliament into silence. In her world, 'division' in parliament is a bad thing and order and control with an increased majority are what she really desires. Shame on her for holding this election for all the wrong reasons, namely to crush her opponents when they're already down and give herself a fabricated mandate for Brexit, when neither are needed in reality.
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- Jul 28, 2013
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- #67
If Labour had a competent leader, I'd take your point. But lets be honest, there hasn't been any opposition since Corbyn took over.
A Labour opposition with 150 seats and a decent leader post this election, would be far more effective opposition than a Corbyn led Labour with 220 odd seats that we currently have.
- Jun 24, 2013
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That May has a "controlling" nature has not gone unnoticed by her colleagues past and present. She has shown on numerous occasions that she belongs very much to the "if you're not with us you're against us" breed (as summed up by that inflammatory Mail headline you refer to, Ben) and that is unhealthy in any democracy. "Lies" is possibly a bit strong (as it was re Tim Farron's referendum comments in a post above), but opportunism and expediency have both reared their heads.
- Jun 24, 2013
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Something we probably broadly agree on. But we are where we are, and that doesn't mean people have to abandon their principles and vote for the Tories' version of domestic bliss.
And, whisper it loudly, Corbyn has already declared an intention to stay on as leader "if" he loses the election (his "if").
I'd tend to agree with you, but there certainly does seem to be an element of opportunism in May's decision to suddenly hold this election when she'd previously ruled it out. Let's remember that May vowed to bring all corners of Britain together and heal the divisions, and to be frank, she has done the opposite to this whether it's on her Brexit stance and in deciding to hold this election.
I'd like to see Labour with another leader too, and maybe as much as I'd hate it and see it as bad for democracy, a Tory landslide win would achieve that and get Corbyn to resign. I have my doubts, however, as I don't think the hard-left really get democracy when it doesn't suit them. Corbyn strikes me as quite arrogant and will see his 'mandate' from a few hundred thousand lefty Labour members as being enough regardless of what the rest of Britain think. And just look at the Unite leadership election and the way Gerard Coyne is being treated for daring to challenge dinosaur Len.
If Labour do suffer a crushing defeat and Corbyn doesn't resign, that'll more than likely be curtains for me as far as my party membership is concerned.
- Jun 24, 2013
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Macron will win the second ballot. He has an aura which appeals to a wide cross-section of the population, a bit like (whisper it) an early Tony Blair, whereas Le Pen appeals to a much narrower and more entrenched group.
All in all it will be another example - after the Presidential elections in Austria and the failure of Geert Wilders in Holland, and probably followed by the increasing implosion of the Alternative für Deutschland party this summer - of the major EU countries failing to follow the UK's lead in turning away from the EU.
All in all it will be another example - after the Presidential elections in Austria and the failure of Geert Wilders in Holland, and probably followed by the increasing implosion of the Alternative für Deutschland party this summer - of the major EU countries failing to follow the UK's lead in turning away from the EU.
- Jul 28, 2013
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- #73
Not a surprise to see Le Pen and Macron in the second round of voting.
From the "outside" it looks like a stroll in the park for Macron in the second round.
However, it'll be much tighter than people think. All the mainstream media, all the main parties and all the politicians from around the globe are saying "vote for Macron". But if anything, that strengthens Le Pens chances, everyone that the beaten down average Frenchman is sick off is telling him/her to vote for Macron.
Mélenchon is refusing to endorse either, Le Pen will gain voters from his base as they are both Eurosceptics and share other policies that are similar. Similar to the way some Bernie Sanders supporters voted for Trump.
I don't think Le Pen will win, however I wouldnt be surprised if she did. It'll be a lot closer than people are saying.
I personally hope Macron is president. I think France and the rest of the EU and the world needs stability after Brexit, the election of Trump and the rise of populist, radical right and left-wing parties across Europe. It will also be good to see a Europhile and experienced negotiator win, as I think that will help Britain get the best deal possible from Brexit. I'd also vote for his message of hope over hate and unity over fear and division any day to what Le Pen offers.
What Le Pen is putting on the table would create even more instability across the EU, fan the flames of xenophobia and racism even more towards immigrants, and could potentially derail the whole EU project which I think woud be a disaster. Who knows, with Le Pen as president, there could be 'Frexit'. I know she has tried to soften the tone of the party she has inherited from her father, but the racist and anti-semitic undertones very much remain and are dangerous.
The polls are saying Macron has got it 62% to 38%, so let's hope they're right. It obviously helps to have Fillon and Hamon both backing him and the rest of the political establishment, business elite and media. Mélenchon, France's version of Corbyn is refusing to endorse either, and thank goodness he didn't get to the run-off. His policies would have bankrupted a country where its pubic spending accounts for 57% of its GDP. Macron will at least start to deliver the reforms that are needed to reduce public spending and start tackling problems such as 10% unemployment, the 35-hour working week and early retirement age.
What Le Pen is putting on the table would create even more instability across the EU, fan the flames of xenophobia and racism even more towards immigrants, and could potentially derail the whole EU project which I think woud be a disaster. Who knows, with Le Pen as president, there could be 'Frexit'. I know she has tried to soften the tone of the party she has inherited from her father, but the racist and anti-semitic undertones very much remain and are dangerous.
The polls are saying Macron has got it 62% to 38%, so let's hope they're right. It obviously helps to have Fillon and Hamon both backing him and the rest of the political establishment, business elite and media. Mélenchon, France's version of Corbyn is refusing to endorse either, and thank goodness he didn't get to the run-off. His policies would have bankrupted a country where its pubic spending accounts for 57% of its GDP. Macron will at least start to deliver the reforms that are needed to reduce public spending and start tackling problems such as 10% unemployment, the 35-hour working week and early retirement age.
- Jul 28, 2013
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- #76
No, the hysterics sometimes like to claim so to scare people.
In reality, you can also draw comparisons between Corbyn and Hitler, too. Both are radical socialist with an enthusiastic youth base that blindly follow and are boarder line aggressive towards anyone who disagrees.
In America you have Antifa who act like Hitler's Brown Shirts, taking to the streets attacking and intimidating people who don't agree with them.
So no. The world isn't replaying 1920. In reality if you look hard enough at anything, you can find comparisons to the rise of the Nazis if you really want to.
- Jun 24, 2013
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It happens at all times of economic uncertainty/hardship to a greater or lesser extent, going back into the deep and distant past of this country as well - a group of people becomes identified by an aspiring leader as a scapegoat and the people's views are massaged with varying degrees of success into believing that "if only we can sort out the problem with x all will be well", the "problem" having been identified for them by an astute politician or ruler. Sometimes it is more spectacularly successful than others, depending on that politician/ruler's power base and/or their rhetoric and charisma.
