Football in Northwich

[Knutsfordian]

Just to bring this thread back up the list.

With Witton 7 points from safety and 1874 hovering above the relegation zone, if this season doesn't spell out the need for something different to happen then nothing will.

 

[Tez]

Just to bring this thread back up the list.

With Witton 7 points from safety and 1874 hovering above the relegation zone, if this season doesn't spell out the need for something different to happen then nothing will.

So how would that work in your opinion? Merger? Given the structure of the two clubs I’d say that it was a non-starter. Genuine question, can you envisage a scenario where Witton are happy to be fan run and dispense with shareholders and business investors?

 

[Tony Fallows]

I believe that the only asset that Witton have is their ground and given it’s location in the middle of an industrial area it’s development potential and therefore it’s value is limited. Once shareholders and other creditors have been satisfied the fan based co-operative model may be the only practical solution left to Witton fans which I am sure 1874 would be delighted to help them set up.

 

[Ben]

If anyone cares, Vics also slipped to a 2-0 defeat at home to Winsford this afternoon in the local derby. A season of mid table mediocrity for them in the counties also.

 

[Tony Fallows]

I would suggest that Jim's Team are an irrelevance to the long term future of local football.

 

[James Wood]

I would suggest that Jim's Team are an irrelevance to the long term future of local football.

Much as it pains me to say it Tony, they have to be part of any ‘joint’ future. If nothing else, the ex Vics fans would bring income into the club, plus volunteers.

But the Vics rich and long history - of which we were all part of until 2012 - cannot be ignored. This isn’t 1984! ?

 

[Knutsfordian]

It's really difficult to suggest what the best operating model and structure would be for any existing or new club. I think it depends on whether you are content to see your team perform at the same level year after year, or whether you have any reasonable expectation that your team could play in a higher league. If we look at the teams that have had reasonable success over the past few years going upwards from the NPL - only FC United are fan owned and they have now hit the proverbial brick wall. In order to have any reasonable expectations it would seem that there has to be some means by which money cam be invested in the club. This immediately challenges the "fan owned" model. This is also the challenge that WAFC face. Whilst WAFC are a Limited Company, shares are quite well distributed which makes it nigh on impossible to get control of the club in a hostile takeover - and also makes it nigh on impossible to attract investors. Whilst the current ground may not be in the best location, they do own the ground and its value would be way in excess of 1874's current means.

Fleetwood, Fylde, Salford City, Wrexham to name but a few, all have profile owners and investors. Getting investment doesn't necessitate having corrupt or immoral owners, but it's clearly key to building a team that has a reasonable chance of success.

I can understand 1874's enthusiasm for the "fan owned" model given the experience they have had, but given the evidence and an outlook of performing at a higher level than both clubs are now (or about to be), then I don't think it's sustainable.

When NVFC were flying and enjoying cup runs and Wembley appearances, no one really cared about ownership models - it was all on the pitch that counted. If we want recreate days like those then we just might have to shake the foundations of peoples' beliefs and sacred tenets to see what would be possible

 

[Tez]

This is also the challenge that WAFC face. Whilst WAFC are a Limited Company, shares are quite well distributed which makes it nigh on impossible to get control of the club in a hostile takeover - and also makes it nigh on impossible to attract investors. Whilst the current ground may not be in the best location, they do own the ground and its value would be way in excess of 1874's current means.

And there in lies the first stumbling block. Who pays the broad number of shareholders and (if they still exist) Directors loans/investment? No one could reasonably expect them to give up their shares without some financial compensation and rightly so.

 

[Tez]

. Whilst the current ground may not be in the best location, they do own the ground and its value would be way in excess of 1874's current means.

So what would you anticipate 1874 would bring to the table ?

 

[Pete]

No football club will rise very high in the football pyramid without a very large fanbase and/or individuals putting their own money in. Fan owned, in the 1874 context, probably puts our ceiling at the NPL Premier division level with the very occasional promotion and, more often, relegation then up again. but overall NPL Prem. For Witton it is probably the same, but maybe more possible promotions than relegations.
I'm old enough to remember pre automatic promotion/relegation between League and non-league. Any club dropping down felt it was the end. When it changed most clubs dropping down found they continued to survive and many rebuilt and went back up. As time moved on clubs that ceased to exist were often 'reborn' and largely kept their fanbase through the model that 1874 have used.
Perhaps, then, rather than focussing on fan ownership of the actual club it should focus on ownership of the ground? I would suggest that that is where the supporters real roots lie and the name of the club is of lesser importance. I accept the circumstances were entirely different but if the Trust had owned the V. Stadium then i bet that now we would still have one 'Northwich' club rebuilding via the Macclesfield route as the actual owner becomes less important. It would also reduce the opportunities for asset stripping etc.
Perhaps WA should set up a Trust to work towards buying WP? If there's a ground there will always be a team even if that team occasionally fails and has to restart.

 

[Knutsfordian]

And there in lies the first stumbling block. Who pays the broad number of shareholders and (if they still exist) Directors loans/investment? No one could reasonably expect them to give up their shares without some financial compensation and rightly so.

At the moment there is no "market" for WAFC shares, so to all intents and purposes they are (I think) deemed by most shareholders to be donations to the club. However, If WAFC was to be sold and some value for the ground realised, there is the possibility that some shareholders might try to claw back the value of their shares (or more if possible) - so that path is fraught with danger and could leave the club groundless.

The guy who bought Macclesfield has sunk £millions into the project, but has given Macc a basis to move on up the pyramid. None of the mid Cheshire teams has that base.

In terms of buying a football club and fan base, if WAFC, NVFC, and 1874 came together under one banner, offered investors the opportunity to buy into the football club and bought out WAFC shareholders - there would be a ground and fan base to rival Macc. There has to be a solution to this that will provide some pathway to decent football in Mid Cheshire. I am sure that consolidating three teams and buying out WAFC is a better business proposition than buying Macc out of receivership??

 

[James Wood]

At the moment there is no "market" for WAFC shares, so to all intents and purposes they are (I think) deemed by most shareholders to be donations to the club. However, If WAFC was to be sold and some value for the ground realised, there is the possibility that some shareholders might try to claw back the value of their shares (or more if possible) - so that path is fraught with danger and could leave the club groundless.

The guy who bought Macclesfield has sunk £millions into the project, but has given Macc a basis to move on up the pyramid. None of the mid Cheshire teams has that base.

In terms of buying a football club and fan base, if WAFC, NVFC, and 1874 came together under one banner, offered investors the opportunity to buy into the football club and bought out WAFC shareholders - there would be a ground and fan base to rival Macc. There has to be a solution to this that will provide some pathway to decent football in Mid Cheshire. I am sure that consolidating three teams and buying out WAFC is a better business proposition than buying Macc out of receivership??

Knutsfordian - I was talking to a well known but lapsed Wittoner the other day (there are a lot of these around!??) about this situation and he made the very same point re the dangers of Albion seeking to moneytise WP.

If I recall, between them Terry Warrender and AN Other own the majority of the shares, so if it came down to a shareholders vote, I don’t think that the many smaller shareholders would have sufficient numbers to block them.

And in any respect, even if the club chose this path, the receipts from any sale would be nowhere near what would be needed to replicate the facility they currently have, never mind but the land in the first instance - particularly if they have to pay existing creditors / pay off the major shareholders first.

And as we have ourselves found, there’s bugger all spare land around Northwich of the acreage that would be needed to build a new stadium - unless it was situated in the green belt or Moss Farm.

And as for the latter option, although it seems an ideal site, having personally been involved in discussions with CWaC and other parties re the possible longer term future use of the site a few years ago, developing a stadium to the required standards somewhere on the MF campus it is not as easy or straightforward as it may seem.

 

[James Wood]

It's really difficult to suggest what the best operating model and structure would be for any existing or new club. I think it depends on whether you are content to see your team perform at the same level year after year, or whether you have any reasonable expectation that your team could play in a higher league. If we look at the teams that have had reasonable success over the past few years going upwards from the NPL - only FC United are fan owned and they have now hit the proverbial brick wall. In order to have any reasonable expectations it would seem that there has to be some means by which money cam be invested in the club. This immediately challenges the "fan owned" model. This is also the challenge that WAFC face. Whilst WAFC are a Limited Company, shares are quite well distributed which makes it nigh on impossible to get control of the club in a hostile takeover - and also makes it nigh on impossible to attract investors. Whilst the current ground may not be in the best location, they do own the ground and its value would be way in excess of 1874's current means.

Fleetwood, Fylde, Salford City, Wrexham to name but a few, all have profile owners and investors. Getting investment doesn't necessitate having corrupt or immoral owners, but it's clearly key to building a team that has a reasonable chance of success.

I can understand 1874's enthusiasm for the "fan owned" model given the experience they have had, but given the evidence and an outlook of performing at a higher level than both clubs are now (or about to be), then I don't think it's sustainable.

When NVFC were flying and enjoying cup runs and Wembley appearances, no one really cared about ownership models - it was all on the pitch that counted. If we want recreate days like those then we just might have to shake the foundations of peoples' beliefs and sacred tenets to see what would be possible

Wimbledon are fan owned and I think that Swansea have a majority of fan ownership.

But there could be a hybrid model that could work - like the 51% fan shareholding model in Germany.

But you also make a valid point re investors into football clubs arent automatically dodgy, immoral or corrupt. The examples at Stoke (with the Coates family), Portsmouth, Wycombe and Wrexham immediately spring to my mind.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Knutsfordian - I was talking to a well known but lapsed Wittoner the other day (there are a lot of these around!??) about this situation and he made the very same point re the dangers of Albion seeking to moneytise WP.

If I recall, between them Terry Warrender and AN Other own the majority of the shares, so if it came down to a shareholders vote, I don’t think that the many smaller shareholders would have sufficient numbers to block them.

And in any respect, even if the club chose this path, the receipts from any sale would be nowhere near what would be needed to replicate the facility they currently have, never mind but the land in the first instance - particularly if they have to pay existing creditors / pay off the major shareholders first.

And as we have ourselves found, there’s bugger all spare land around Northwich of the acreage that would be needed to build a new stadium - unless it was situated in the green belt or Moss Farm.

And as for the latter option, although it seems an ideal site, having personally been involved in discussions with CWaC and other parties re the possible longer term future use of the site a few years ago, developing a stadium to the required standards somewhere on the MF campus it is not as easy or straightforward as it may seem.

I agree with all of this James - except for the comment re Terry Warrender. If memory serves me correctly he made an attempt to get control of the club some years ago but the all the small shareholders were mobilised and it was voted down. My thoughts are that if a football person stepped in and bought WP for say £1.2 million in round numbers that would give shareholders £4 a share. At that price most would sell. Its a negotiation and it may fetch more, or less, and at that point the door is opened to a new consolidated club. AS you say, you couldn't buy oir build an equal facility for anything like that sum, so it has to be a proposition with merit?

 

[Graham Spencer]

I would suggest it would be best to just sign the ground over to the "new" fans trust at £1
Shareholders loose out, but I guess they always thought that would be the case
That way all fundraising would help to develop the facility and maybe with 4G pitch etc, the future would be secure
If the new set up had to try and raise £1 million before it kicked a ball, its a non starter

 

[James Wood]

I would suggest it would be best to just sign the ground over to the "new" fans trust at £1
Shareholders loose out, but I guess they always thought that would be the case
That way all fundraising would help to develop the facility and maybe with 4G pitch etc, the future would be secure
If the new set up had to try and raise £1 million before it kicked a ball, its a non starter

I agree Graham that it would be pointless in saddling any new or merged club with a load of debt.

So if any new entity was to be created and based at WP then this would be reliant on the majority of WAFC shareholders effectively agreeing to waive their rights to cash in their shares.

I’ve no idea what the WAFC articles of association say about winding the company up, required majorities to do this ( straight majority or 2/3 majority).

Another big consideration we’ve got to take into account is that the fans of WAFC are likely to take the view that they have little to gain and most to lose. After all, Vics are reliant on them for a base to play so Albion have got them exactly where they want (although on the flip side Albion have become increasingly reliant on the money that Vics pay them in rental).

74 meanwhile are also renting a ground from a third party which suits our current situation and needs but will need significant investment if we are to progress any higher up the pyramid. And to do so will need the agreement of both Barnton FC and Barnton PC (never mind CWaC planners should any improvements require planning consent.

I think that the key would be to persuade the fans and shareholders of WAFC that a merged club based at WP would be the best option for ensuring that senior football has a chance of flourishing in the town rather than spiralling downwards as it has done for the last two decades

 

[James Wood]

I agree with all of this James - except for the comment re Terry Warrender. If memory serves me correctly he made an attempt to get control of the club some years ago but the all the small shareholders were mobilised and it was voted down. My thoughts are that if a football person stepped in and bought WP for say £1.2 million in round numbers that would give shareholders £4 a share. At that price most would sell. Its a negotiation and it may fetch more, or less, and at that point the door is opened to a new consolidated club. AS you say, you couldn't buy oir build an equal facility for anything like that sum, so it has to be a proposition with merit?

Knutsfordian - I’ll bow to your greater knowledge of the share distribution at WAFC.

The problem is finding a “football person” with £1.2M (or whatever sum) burning a hole in their pocket and who has a desire to get involved in the running of a non-league football club and all that entails.

These types of people don’t grow on trees, but I’d argue that if do exist in and around Mid Cheshire (and there are after all plenty of seriously rich people in Cheshire! ?) then they’d probably be more open to investing in joint Northwich club rather than backing one of the three existing sides.

And as I think that all of us agree upon, a joint club will be able to leverage a far greater degree of backing from the local business community and residents of the town than the combined efforts of the existing trio

 

[Edge]

Companies house has a list of Witton shareholders from 2016 - https://tinyurl.com/jcdxnywb

The Worthingtons have 46k, Warrenders 50k & the late Doug Lloyd 28k
300k shares in circulation so no clear majority - assuming nothing much has changed re the holdings

 

[James Wood]

Knutsfordian - I’ll bow to your greater knowledge of the share distribution at WAFC.

The problem is finding a “football person” with £1.2M (or whatever sum) burning a hole in their pocket and who has a desire to get involved in the running of a non-league football club and all that entails.

These types of people don’t grow on trees, but I’d argue that if do exist in and around Mid Cheshire (and there are after all plenty of seriously rich people in Cheshire! ?) then they’d probably be more open to investing in joint Northwich club rather than backing one of the three existing sides.

And as I think that all of us agree upon, a joint club will be able to leverage a far greater degree of backing from the local business community and residents of the town than the combined efforts of the existing trio

 

[Knutsfordian]

Knutsfordian - I’ll bow to your greater knowledge of the share distribution at WAFC.

The problem is finding a “football person” with £1.2M (or whatever sum) burning a hole in their pocket and who has a desire to get involved in the running of a non-league football club and all that entails.

These types of people don’t grow on trees, but I’d argue that if do exist in and around Mid Cheshire (and there are after all plenty of seriously rich people in Cheshire! ?) then they’d probably be more open to investing in joint Northwich club rather than backing one of the three existing sides.

And as I think that all of us agree upon, a joint club will be able to leverage a far greater degree of backing from the local business community and residents of the town than the combined efforts of the existing trio

Totally agree James - the buyout of WAFC would be a precursor to bringing all the clubs into the fold