General Election 2017

[Kit]

Ben, have to say many people in the North West are now home owners due to Thatcher and have built up a nest egg they never would have had. Labour opposed anyone buying their council house.
I also disagree with you about 'me first' Britain. This was created by labour after 1997 when they made a life on benefits a career choice for many, whole communities now place no value on education or working for a living and have a sense of entitlement. Labour's recent campaign was purely based on the 'you can have it all and have it now' culture.

 

[Alan M]

Thatcher is widely "credited" with starting the culture of the self above society, and even famously gloried in this "achievement". The sale of council houses is but one clear example of that. There are indeed more home owners as a result, with property bought at a time you could get a 3 bed semi for £30K even down here, but that has done nothing to preserve or create a social housing stock, resulting in a huge number of people on waiting lists for non-existent housing, a clamour for mortgages at silly salary multiples, and beginning a house-price spiral in the late 80s which eventually burst in 2007, contributing to the collapse of banking structures worldwide. People then laid it at Labour's door, because the crash came on their watch. That is as stupid a conclusion as saying that the Conservatives are responsible for all the current tower block ills, because Grenfell happened on their watch.

Re benefits - there is a grain of truth in what you say, but it does not reflect the true picture, which is that most people on benefits are actually working (other than the pensioners perhaps, as they take up 40% of all benefits spending) and the benefits augment what in many cases are below-subsistence wages.
Source, Govt Office of National Statistics http://visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/

 

[Nicki]

nicki. I think you will find that one part of Barnton is included in Esthers tatton constituency.the other part of Barnton is weaver vale.

Virgil, I think you'll find I made no assertion about what parts of Barnton are in or out of Tatton.

 

[Kit]

Alan, the 2007 crash was not due to Thatcher, it was due to labour's spend and worry later policies. Something Corbyn wants to do to the absolute extreme.
My father-in-law (labour man through and through) says that being able to buy his house meant that he could eventuslly escape (his words) the sink estates he had always lived in and prosper.

 

[Alan M]

I didn't say Thatcher caused the crash! I merely pointed to the seeds being sown as far back as the 80s.

Look up sub-prime mortgages, BNP Parisbas, Lehmann Brothers, Icelandic banks, etc. It is a crass rewriting of history to blame the global financial crisis 10 years ago on any British government (other than that they relaxed banking regulations in the preceding years, with the full support of the Conservative opposition, who actually wanted greater deregulation).

No disrespect intended, and no blame attached for doing it, but your father-in-law is thus a perfect demonstration of my point about self-interest being championed by Thatcher above any idea of the interests of society as a whole.

 

[Kit]

Alan, with regards the father-in-law, he left school with no qualifications, worked nights for many years to pay the mortgage, did his GCSEs, a-levels, degree and teaching qualification in his late-30s and became a teacher at 42 because he wanted to champion young people to save them from the life he had. I can't think of anyone with less self-interest. A number of Thatcher's policies and legacy allowed him to achieve.

 

[Ben]

Ben, have to say many people in the North West are now home owners due to Thatcher and have built up a nest egg they never would have had. Labour opposed anyone buying their council house.
I also disagree with you about 'me first' Britain. This was created by labour after 1997 when they made a life on benefits a career choice for many, whole communities now place no value on education or working for a living and have a sense of entitlement. Labour's recent campaign was purely based on the 'you can have it all and have it now' culture.

Of course I'm not against people buying and owning their own homes. But what Thatcher did was sell of so much social housing that Britain was left without another social housing stock to meet rising demand, hence the housing shortages and waiting lists we see today. Also, how many people living in social housing could actually afford to buy their own homes? I don't think Labour oppose anyone buying their council home, just that they oppose the idea of getting rid of our cheap and affordable housing stock.

As for Labour creating the 'me first' Britain, I'd have to disagree. Funding a generous welfare state is not encouraging this mentality in most people. Of course some people have a sense of 'entitlement' and choose to live a life on benefits, but the vast majority of people on benefits are in work and rely on tax credits etc... to top up their low wages. It's Thatcher who ultimately created the individualistic society we live in now and the idea of a 'small state'.

On a slightly different subject, this government can't even support a pay rise for public sector workers despite a recommendation from a pay review body to do just that. A 1% pay cap since 2013 and two-year freeze on pay before that leaving these workers £4,000 a year worse off in real terms by 2020 and because of this, nurses having to go to food banks and having to get debt advice,

I think it's disgraceful to treat our hardworking emergency services who save lives and teachers in this way, but then this government never have cared about public sector workers and are far from the 'party of working people' they claim. No wonder they lost their majority.

 

[Kit]

Ben, I have been on the receiving end of the cap for 7 years, but let's not forget why the country was facing ruin. Labour's spend and worry about it later policies that without fail always send the country into a financial black hole. The same thing would happen with Corbyn, just much quicker!

 

[Ben]

Ben, I have been on the receiving end of the cap for 7 years, but let's not forget why the country was facing ruin. Labour's spend and worry about it later policies that without fail always send the country into a financial black hole. The same thing would happen with Corbyn, just much quicker!

With respect Kit, I struggle to see why you'd support a government that has capped your pay for 7 years while quite happily spending money on academies and other education reforms.

As for Labour causing the crash of 2008, that was the banks and housing market and it was also a world financial crisis. I just don't buy into the idea that Labour spending money on improving our schools and hospitals caused this crash. Let's remember that the Tories backed Labour pound for pound when it came to spending on all these things. Funny how it changes when they get into government.

That said, I see that many Tory ministers are speaking out in support of a pay rise for public sector workers and a scaling down of austerity. Plus, we've seen the likes of Damian Green and May herself talk about wooing younger voters by having a rethink on university fees. So maybe the message of the last election and why they lost their majority is just starting to get through.

 

[Kit]

Thing is Ben, they didn't improve schools, they dumbed them down to ridiculously low levels. They threw money at it but it had no impact. Children now are coming through more confident and with far greater ability and 9/10 year olds are achieving with stuff I was doing in Year 9.
I agree that the time to end the pay cap has come. Teaching is a professsion that should be valued and respected and an inflation level annual pay rise is the least teachers deserve. I also think nurses and the like should get a decent pay rise each year too. These people are the backbone of the country.

 

[Kit]

I also agree that the election result may have actually saved the conservatives, they now have to listen, adapt and reach out to people and I hope they do. Hopefully they've got the message and (just) kept themselves in power too.

 

[James Wood]

Ben, have to say many people in the North West are now home owners due to Thatcher

Sorry Kit, but if any credit should be given to the right to buy initiative then it should be Ted Heath who gets the plaudits. Not Thatcher.
It was the Tory party who took this initiative on when they came to power in 1970 and my parents were one of many who took advantage of this.

The downside of this is that the funds gained from this initiative were not re-directed into providing more modern, affordable and decent housing for the majority of people whom, at this time, lived in pretty desperate accommodation.

In my view, as one of the richest nations in the world, the fact that many of our population continue to live in sub-standard accommodation is an absolute scandal.

 

[James Wood]

I didn't say Thatcher caused the crash! I merely pointed to the seeds being sown as far back as the 80s.

Look up sub-prime mortgages, BNP Parisbas, Lehmann Brothers, Icelandic banks, etc. It is a crass rewriting of history to blame the global financial crisis 10 years ago on any British government (other than that they relaxed banking regulations in the preceding years, with the full support of the Conservative opposition, who actually wanted greater deregulation).

No disrespect intended, and no blame attached for doing it, but your father-in-law is thus a perfect demonstration of my point about self-interest being championed by Thatcher above any idea of the interests of society as a whole.

Spot on Alan. Problem is that the truth is something that a few posters on this thread find it difficult to accept.

 

[James Wood]

Complete shambles on the issue of Brexit. I still have no idea whatsoever what their stance or plan is therefore I can not put my trust in them and I have lost interest yet again. Promising the money tree and the world to everyone in their GE manifesto reignited my interest but it has fiizzled out again quite soon afterwards. All in all its not looking too bad a result in the GE for the Tories in hindsight.

Paul - remind me. What is the Tories plan on Brexit? They've had a year or more to come up with one, but as yet things are much the same as they were 12 months ago (i.e. frankly they haven't got a bloody clue). The really worrying thing is that they are (supposed) to be the Governing party who are leading us towards the 'sun-light' uplands of a new vision for this country.

 

[paul]

Paul will you be collecting your bucket of tripe at our first home game,you have certainly earn it?

Hi Toddy I wondered where you had been. Welcome back to the forum.

Sorry but I'll be watching Witton's return to the Northern Premier League first game of the season. Stick the tripe in the freezer and I'll swap it with the wooden spoon I bought for you a few years ago. We can exchange if we visit each other in the league or FA Cup, so put the tripe in deep freeze just in case please

 

[Alan M]

Kit - The spending by the Labour govt on propping up the banks and stopping them going bankrupt and causing a general economic meltdown was what drained this country of all the money in 2008. Remember how many billions we had to throw at the likes of Halifax, RBS, Lloyds, Northern Rock, Bradford & Bingley etc? And, as it has recently materialised, Barclays only avoided taking more of our money by doing dodgy financing deals elsewhere. It was not Labour's spending on public services and social infrastructure which left the coffers empty.

 

[paul]

Paul - remind me. What is the Tories plan on Brexit? They've had a year or more to come up with one, but as yet things are much the same as they were 12 months ago (i.e. frankly they haven't got a bloody clue). The really worrying thing is that they are (supposed) to be the Governing party who are leading us towards the 'sun-light' uplands of a new vision for this country.

Brexit means Brexit. No hard, soft or medium boiled. The plan has been delayed because of Gina Miller, Tim nice but dim Farron, Jimmie Krankie and everyone else that couldn't (and still cant) accept the result.

 

[Alan M]

But it doesn't, does it? Ask Hammond, Davies and May and you'll get three different versions of what they actually want to get out of leaving the EU and how to do it. Once leading ministers start briefing against each other you know there is chaos afoot.

 

[paul]

But it doesn't, does it? Ask Hammond, Davies and May and you'll get three different versions of what they actually want to get out of leaving the EU and how to do it. Once leading ministers start briefing against each other you know there is chaos afoot.

It does to me I knew exactly what I voted for. We can not leave the European Union without leaving the Single market and the Customs Union. Not sure about Davies but May and Hammond were staunch remainers anyway.

 

[James Wood]

I
Dread to think how Labour would deal with a national crisis, just look at the mess the Labour Camden council have caused trying to force people out of their own homes!

So it might not have been the best executed plan of all time, but at least they were being pro-active.
They acted to try to ensure that their tenants were as safe as they possibly could be given the information that they had at that time.
Compare this to the shambolic(and I am being kind here) response to the 'Flagship' Tory Council of K&C to the Grenfell tragedy.
Don't forget, this was a council that openly boasted about giving back Council Tax rebates to some of the richest people in this country and had a surplus of £250M+ but chose to penny-pinch on the refurb of one of the towers that housed the least well-off people in the Borough.
And then made a complete horlicks of the response to the dreadful events that occurred on their own doorstep
Unfortunately, such is the limited remit of the Moore-Bick inquiry that I very much doubt that the culpability of the Leader and CEO of K&C Council, the K&CTMO and others involved in this will immediately come to light.
But as the Hillsborough case has shown, the truth will out.
Very interesting critique in the latest edition of Private Eye about the events over the last few years re this issue.
IMHO, combined with the Brexit shambles, this "Government" is undoubtedly the most shambolic excuse of an an administration there has been for 75 years.