Cummings, Johnson and this whole shit show

[Andy]

“Lets start with millions of illegal immigrants who don't want to be contacted, can't isolate because they can't claim benefits. can't go to hospital in case they get bubbled as illegals and are not registered with any address.”

Ah Knutsfordian. Typical odious right wing starting point. Blame immigrants first.

Gypsies, Romany, Jews, Communists.

The Nazis and Facists targeted those groups first.

Look what happened then.

Do we not want to learn from history??

You’ve finally shown your true colours. Something I’ve suspected for some time

Hold on a second.

Knutsfordian hasn’t “targeted” or said anything derogatory about illegal immigrants.

He stated that they would avoid track and trace, which is true because of fear of what might happen to them.

I think the point knutsfordian is trying to make is track and trace will never track down every case and contact because people will be people avoiding it, whether they are avoiding it for fear of being found by immigration officers, or whether they’re avoiding test and trace by simply using a fake name when signing in to a restaurant.

I don’t see any derogatory words about illegal immigrants in that post, just simply pointing out another flaw with the whole test and trace system. There are just lots of people, from a number of backgrounds and situations who just don’t want to be traced for a number of different reasons.

So trying to compare that post to Nazis it utterly ridiculous. It’s a pet hate of mine when people do that, it undermines the true atrocities when people just call people they don’t agree with them.

We’ve got one fool on the forum that insists on doing it, but cone on, James, you’re better than that.

 

[Knutsfordian]

“erm well I wouldn't let Meg Hillier (or odious Anneliese) manage my pocket money personally”.

Hmmmm.

And Boris, Rishi et al have done so well with our economy haven’t they? Our GDP has fallen to far lower levels than any comparative countries.

Just watching Newsnight - trade to the EU down by 40%. Imports similarly hit (which will impact prices of goods on the shelves).

HM Government asked to provide a representative to appear but they refused.

Clearly they have a great deal to hide.

Not really anything to hide - the numbers are the numbers. Why they should be so is open to interpretation and the true levels of trade will not be properly assessed until the economies on both sides of the channel are more stable.

Indications are that our trade with the rest of the world is less affected by the economic turmoil, than the trade with the EU. No doubt this will give the Remainers an opportunity to say "I told you so". There is no reason why trade with the EU should be so difficult when it clearly isn't with the rest of the world, but as I have said elsewhere the EU is not about free trade it's about protectionism. That's why the government is going hell for leather to open up free trade agreements across the world to break this dependence on the EU as our largest trading partner.

Our relationship with the EU is becoming increasingly fractious - as also discussed elsewhere - with no likelihood of that improving any time soon. Both sides are involved in tit-for-tat conflicts with the EU being arsy about the NI protocol, we don't recognise EU embassy status, EU ambassador stays in Brussels so he can't be summoned to the FCO, EU getting stroppy about vaccines and rubbishing AZ, Boris basically calling Charles Michel a liar in the UK Parliament for his statements on UK blocking vaccines, Michel doubling down and calling out the UK and USA and so it goes on. In the mean time manufacturers are just thinking it's not worth the hassle.

One might hope that the relationship would improve to a more position, but there are some real fundamentals that cannot be easily resolved. The UK doesn't recognise the EU as a state in itself - which it isn't - but that's a difficult rub for the EU who see life so differently, don't care much for UK leaving the EU and are about to launch a review of the EU that will no doubt come to the conclusion that they need more Europe, not less. There's the whole issue around the City of London, which the EU wants to break away from, but which could break the EU's financial systems at least in the short term. And then there's David Frost who has really got under the skin of the EU. They hate him with a passion. After Theresa May and Ollie Robbins rolled over to have their bellies tickled by the EU, Frost has been a bit of a shock. He gives no quarter and is prepared to follow through on the outcomes where required and if allowed to.

Given that scenario, I don't think the UK government is looking to build bridges. I think it wants to put clear blue water between the UK in the EU and the UK out of the EU. By the time the next election comes round, I think there will be a greater possibility of Boris's Burrow becoming a reality than rejoining the EU and the relationship will be nothing more than "needs must" despite any rhetoric about our friends across the Channel.

 

[Knutsfordian]

“Lets start with millions of illegal immigrants who don't want to be contacted, can't isolate because they can't claim benefits. can't go to hospital in case they get bubbled as illegals and are not registered with any address.”

Ah Knutsfordian. Typical odious right wing starting point. Blame immigrants first.

Gypsies, Romany, Jews, Communists.

The Nazis and Facists targeted those groups first.

Look what happened then.

Do we not want to learn from history??

You’ve finally shown your true colours. Something I’ve suspected for some time

What utter tosh James !

It is fact that we have lots of people in this country that we don't officially know they are here !! So we can't track and trace them. They can't get access to medicines or be called up to be vaccinated - so it is going to be a problem whether you like it or not.

You have to recognise the problem before you can address it and burying your head in the sand, or not talking about it doesn't make it go away. The government has set up special vaccination teams to try and get illegal immigrants vaccinated and to reassure them that any information given will not be used to get them deported !!

It is disappointing that in a valid discussion as to why track and trace will not work you resort to playing the old racist card. You know me far better than that, despite what you put in your post.

For the record, at some point I think the government needs to call for an amnesty on illegal immigrants so that the scale of what we don't know can be fully recognised and addressed.

 

[Alan M]

Minor fact check ... (1) you've put the number of "illegal immigrants" at 3 million, Knutsfordian. By their very nature, the number of illegal immigrants is unknown. (2) you rightly point out the EU is not a state [and I don't see why they need an 'ambassador' either], but then say the EU is causing ructions with the AZ vaccine and stopped vaccine exports to Australia - it is individual states within the EU who have suspended AZ vaccines (in my view they are being ridiculously over-cautious and indeed the EU [in the form of the EMA] agrees that there are no concerns); it was an individual state (Italy) which instigated the vaccine export ban.

Also on Nightingales - yes, seen as a contingency, but the reason they were never used is that there have never been any doctors & nurses available to staff them. It's another example of the govt coming up with a "bright idea" (on this occasion in part because they saw China throwing up hospitals at crazy speeds) but not thinking it through and considering all the implications. (And that's a view from my quasi-insider position from work discussions with people fairly high up regional NHS down here).

 

[Knutsfordian]

Minor fact check ... (1) you've put the number of "illegal immigrants" at 3 million, Knutsfordian. By their very nature, the number of illegal immigrants is unknown. (2) you rightly point out the EU is not a state [and I don't see why they need an 'ambassador' either], but then say the EU is causing ructions with the AZ vaccine and stopped vaccine exports to Australia - it is individual states within the EU who have suspended AZ vaccines (in my view they are being ridiculously over-cautious and indeed the EU [in the form of the EMA] agrees that there are no concerns); it was an individual state (Italy) which instigated the vaccine export ban.

Also on Nightingales - yes, seen as a contingency, but the reason they were never used is that there have never been any doctors & nurses available to staff them. It's another example of the govt coming up with a "bright idea" (on this occasion in part because they saw China throwing up hospitals at crazy speeds) but not thinking it through and considering all the implications. (And that's a view from my quasi-insider position from work discussions with people fairly high up regional NHS down here).

I agree the number of illegal immigrants is unknown and that's why I put a ? after the 3 million i posted. It also depends what you include - people who have entered illegally, overstayed visas etc. So the bottom line is you could use any number you like with caveats. The number itself is really immaterial - other than to say there are a substantial number of people who, for whatever reason, don't want to be subject to test, track and trace. That's all. Not whether they should be here or if they are doing anything wrong. It is just a fact that we have a large number of people, including people who haven't got any formal right to reside in the UK as well as a large number of UK residents, who will not freely participate in track and trace.

With regard to the limitation of vaccines - yes you are right it was Italy that blocked the export but as I understand it under the EU rules. There is some confusion here, at least on my part, where individual countries take actions but then Brussels and its MEPs wade in with an EU perspective. If countries were acting independently then I am not sure why the EU officials need to intervene. This is from the EU website...........

"In an effort to ensure timely access to COVID-19 vaccines for all EU citizens and to tackle the current lack of transparency of vaccine exports outside the EU, the Commission has today put in place a measure requiring that such exports are subject to an authorisation by Member States.

President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen said: “The pandemic is having devastating effects in Europe and all around the world. Protecting the health of our citizens remains our utmost priority, and we must put in place the necessary measures to ensure we achieve this. This transparency and authorisation mechanism is temporary, and we will of course continue to uphold our commitments towards low and middle income countries.”"

With regard to nightingales, I am sure that providing the required number of NHS doctors and nurses would have been an issue. I suspect that if the nightingales had been brought into use, it would have been on a "war time" footing, where contingency plans must be in place for treating of mass casualties by using all available resources including (say) conscription of staff from all private hospitals, armed forces reservists etc. We are not privy to the detailed plans, but I suspect that if we give the people who built them a modicum of intellect then their project management and resourcing plans would have included contingencies to bring them into use.

 

[James Wood]

and when you've finished sequencing the gnomes you presumably want to deport them?

“erm well I wouldn't let Meg Hillier (or odious Anneliese) manage my pocket money personally”.

Hmmmm.

And Boris, Rishi et al have done so well with our economy haven’t they? Our GDP has fallen to far lower levels than any comparative countries.

Just watching Newsnight - trade to the EU down by 40%. Imports similarly hit (which will impact prices of goods on the shelves).

HM Government asked to provide a representative to appear but they refused.

Clearly they have a great deal to hide.

And now we have the Bully Patel proposing to introduce significant restrictions on our rights to protest peacefully.

A facist state moves a step closer?

And they are even proposing to bring in legislation to persecute individuals for protesting!

 

[James Wood]

And now we have the Bully Patel proposing to introduce significant restrictions on our rights to protest peacefully.

A facist state moves a step closer?

And they are even proposing to bring in legislation to persecute individuals for protesting!

View attachment 2104

Silencing Black Lives Matter: Priti Patel's anti-protest law - Politics.co.uk

It is cancel culture on a statutory footing, directed against the left.

www.politics.co.uk

 

[Knutsfordian]

People have a right to protest, but people also have a right to go about their business, go to work and live a peaceful life. Some of these protests have brought the streets to a standstill and prevented honest hard working people from earning a living and are an intrusion into other people's lives.

There has to be a balance.

Trying to ensure that the rights of those who are not protesting are upheld doesn't make the government fascist. Rather what right have the people who are protesting to think that they can destroy other people's lives, livelihoods, stop hospital admissions and people trying to get to A&E and day to day business with complete impunity ? At what point do the rights of the majority have to be subjugated to the protestors?

Extinction Rebellion might have thought that they scored a few points with their protests in recent years - but at what cost now? Actions have consequences - and in this case change is essential because people need to lead normal lives and we decide key issues through the ballot box - not on the streets!

As for Steve Bray and his SODEM movement, that ship has sailed. His self-aggrandisement knows no bounds and to think that somehow the government is frightened of him is nonsense. He would be far better off accepting his place in history as the man who opposed Brexit, and failed. Perhaps that's the bit he can't live with, but I am sure the government can.

 

[Andy]

And now we have the Bully Patel proposing to introduce significant restrictions on our rights to protest peacefully.

A facist state moves a step closer?

And they are even proposing to bring in legislation to persecute individuals for protesting!

View attachment 2104

From the left to the right, essentially all those in the UK expresses their shock that the authoritarian views they've been championing for the last year, might warp in to unsavoury authoritarian policing...

Maybe we’ll finally agree on something, James. These “measures” and the way police have handled them this pandemic has been a disgrace. They have acted like this all year.

 

[James Wood]

People have a right to protest, but people also have a right to go about their business, go to work and live a peaceful life. Some of these protests have brought the streets to a standstill and prevented honest hard working people from earning a living and are an intrusion into other people's lives.

There has to be a balance.

Trying to ensure that the rights of those who are not protesting are upheld doesn't make the government fascist. Rather what right have the people who are protesting to think that they can destroy other people's lives, livelihoods, stop hospital admissions and people trying to get to A&E and day to day business with complete impunity ? At what point do the rights of the majority have to be subjugated to the protestors?

Extinction Rebellion might have thought that they scored a few points with their protests in recent years - but at what cost now? Actions have consequences - and in this case change is essential because people need to lead normal lives and we decide key issues through the ballot box - not on the streets!

As for Steve Bray and his SODEM movement, that ship has sailed. His self-aggrandisement knows no bounds and to think that somehow the government is frightened of him is nonsense. He would be far better off accepting his place in history as the man who opposed Brexit, and failed. Perhaps that's the bit he can't live with, but I am sure the government can.

So if Steve Bray has so patently lost his battle, why does this disgraceful piece of legislation include a section that seeks to prevent free and open demonstration by individuals as opposed to the collective?

In my view he’s certainly achieved one thing - and that has been to get under the skin of this appalling administration to such an extent that they have to react like this

 

[Andy]

I feel sorry for Steve Bray. He needs a different hobby.

 

[Knutsfordian]

From the left to the right, essentially all those in the UK expresses their shock that the authoritarian views they've been championing for the last year, might warp in to unsavoury authoritarian policing...

Maybe we’ll finally agree on something, James. These “measures” and the way police have handled them this pandemic has been a disgrace. They have acted like this all year.

I agree that the policing of the pandemic has raised some serious issues, not only in England but Wales and Scotland too where crackdowns on people travelling haven been quite vicious and the restriction of freedoms generally have been more than we should really be accepting. That said, I would just go back to the lack of self restraint that has been evident during the pandemic.

With regard to curbing rights to demonstrate, I stand by what I said previously - People have a right to get on with their lives and not be disrupted by protest

 

[Knutsfordian]

I feel sorry for Steve Bray. He needs a different hobby.

Perhaps he should pal up with Lord Adonis and then they could get round the one man protest rules

 

[James Wood]

From the left to the right, essentially all those in the UK expresses their shock that the authoritarian views they've been championing for the last year, might warp in to unsavoury authoritarian policing...

Maybe we’ll finally agree on something, James. These “measures” and the way police have handled them this pandemic has been a disgrace. They have acted like this all year.

This might surprise you Andy, but I am a libertarian at heart and firmly believe that as a citizen of this country we ought to be able to get on and live our lives with the minimum of interruption or intervention from the state (the minimum factors being such things as the reasonable laws of the land that most people would accept as being required to run a decent, fair and just

It is for this very reason why I am anti monarchy and anti establishment. I am not and never will be a bloody ‘subject’ of a woman (or indeed man) who’s only ‘right’ to her current position is that they happened to have been born at the right time (for them) into a privileged, elitist oligarchy.

You may think from my posts over the past 12 months that I’ve been a flag-waver for the introduction and enforcement of the restrictions we’ve all had to live with since Covid first hit us.

But nothing could be further from
the truth. They have gone against my very beliefs and principles.

But the last 12 months has - unfortunately - been unique and has required unusual and unpalatable decisions to be made about our individual freedoms for the benefit of the majority.

Without these then I firmly believe that the death toll would have been far, far higher.

My massive concern now is that the bully Patel seems hell bent in making the temporary restrictions on assembly and protest that were introduced during Covid permanent.

We cannot let this happen. The events of the last 48 hours has
Shown us where such measures lead us to.

 

[Knutsfordian]

My massive concern now is that the bully Patel seems hell bent in making the temporary restrictions on assembly and protest that were introduced during Covid permanent.

We cannot let this happen. The events of the last 48 hours has
Shown us where such measures lead us to.

My take on is that the 2 things are not connected. The permanent curbs on protest, I think, are directly attributable to the protests in London, by Extinction Rebellion especially, that brought the Capital to is knees with all sorts of consequences.

If it was purely an extension of Covid restrictions I don't think that even the Conservative party would support the legislation.

 

[Andy]

This might surprise you Andy, but I am a libertarian at heart and firmly believe that as a citizen of this country we ought to be able to get on and live our lives with the minimum of interruption or intervention from the state

I knew we’d agree on something ?

This is what concerns me about the 21st of June (or whatever date it will be). For some in the Police, governments and sage, they’ll find it hard to let go of the gross amounts of power they currently have got.

 

[Andy]

Sad to seek the far left have hijacked this cause, like they often do.

The sooner they realise they do my damage to movements than good the better.

 

[James Wood]

Sad to seek the far left have hijacked this cause, like they often do.

The sooner they realise they do my damage to movements than good the better.

David Lammy telling it is how it is. The sheep that are the majority of the Tory MPs have voted through this draconian set of measures that will have long lasting impacts on the ability of us to protest peacefully.

The likes of Russia, China, Myanmar and others must be running their hands with delight given that one of the most supposed free and democratic countries in the world has introduced such restrictive laws on peaceful protest.

The facist state comes another step closer

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[Knutsfordian]

David Lammy telling it is how it is. The sheep that are the majority of the Tory MPs have voted through this draconian set of measures that will have long lasting impacts on the ability of us to protest peacefully.

The likes of Russia, China, Myanmar and others must be running their hands with delight given that one of the most supposed free and democratic countries in the world has introduced such restrictive laws on peaceful protest.

The facist state comes another step closer

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But the Extinction Rebellion protestors show no remorse for the disruption they cause, that results in this legislation. So don't blame the government, blame the idiots who made this necessary

 

[Andy]

Ah yes - known liar, David Lammy, speaks in a manner which is contradictory to the way he has voted in the commons over the last year.

It’s interesting to see. Those that have created this environment, pushed in or supported these restrictions speaking up now. They turned a blind eye when antilockdown protestors were attacked by police, hospitalising a woman, some even celebrated.

There are people in parliament speaking out who should be first apologising for supporting these measures over the last year.