Cummings, Johnson and this whole shit show

[Knutsfordian]

Hmmm. Proroguing Parliament illegally? Threatening to break international law. Ministers acting unlawfully and breaking codes of contact.

Things may not be rosy North of the border but those on glass houses....

Everything the Westminster government does is done in the full glare of publicity and where necessary has been challenged in the courts - where the government has always followed the legal outcomes - whether that be the Brexit outcomes or proroguing Parliament. The SNP are being shown to have wilfully not followed their own Lord Advocates advice in order to follow their chosen path.

As Andy mentions earlier the SNP have failed on a raft of measures by which they could and should have been judged if Sturgeon hadn't been given a free ride in the MSM and the opposition parties had done their jobs properly.

I also said that if there is to be a debate and another referendum on independence then it should be done on a fair and open basis, something that isn't going to happen with this version of the SNP in office.

 

[Phil Bradley]

I also said that if there is to be a debate and another referendum on independence then it should be done on a fair and open basis, something that isn't going to happen with this version of the SNP in office.

What a novel concept.

 

[Knutsfordian]

What a novel concept.

Clearly you don't think our elections are fair and open - so no hope for democracy in your eyes then. Your endless and boundless cynicism, not to mention your bitterness, at being on the wrong side of the Brexit referendum must make your life very miserable. Its a shame really as you may have to endure many Brexit years before another referendum can take place, by which time rejoining the EU may not even be an option for the UK (even if the EU exists).

What also comes across is a wish to visit all the possible ills of a miserable Brexit upon the UK to prove a point and see the UK fragment so that you can sit there and say well I told you so in the manner of James O'Brien . In the best interest of all the people of this country we need to be as successful as we can be, so really there is little room for rancour and bitterness - and all you are achieving is to make your own views more unpalatable to those you wish to persuade otherwise

 

[James Wood]

“What about, what about, what about?”

We get you don’t like Boris, but this is a discussion is about the SNP, admittedly off topic for this thread, so feel free to request that it is moved to a new thread as it’s not on topic for this thread.

Apologies we encroached on your Boris bashing echo chamber with a differed topic ?

Andy - it was you in response to Phil who went off at a tangent and started to reel off the failures of the SNP government in Scotland.

All I was doing was to put a counter argument that things in Engerland ain’t so rosy either.....

I mean, the government re-nationalising significant parts of the rail network are clearly the dreams of left-wing loonies aren’t they? ?

 

[James Wood]

Clearly you don't think our elections are fair and open - so no hope for democracy in your eyes then. Your endless and boundless cynicism, not to mention your bitterness, at being on the wrong side of the Brexit referendum must make your life very miserable. Its a shame really as you may have to endure many Brexit years before another referendum can take place, by which time rejoining the EU may not even be an option for the UK (even if the EU exists).

What also comes across is a wish to visit all the possible ills of a miserable Brexit upon the UK to prove a point and see the UK fragment so that you can sit there and say well I told you so in the manner of James O'Brien . In the best interest of all the people of this country we need to be as successful as we can be, so really there is little room for rancour and bitterness - and all you are achieving is to make your own views more unpalatable to those you wish to persuade otherwise

Or maybe we are merely pointing out the unpalatable fact to Brexiteers that their misplaced campaign to get rid of the yoke of those nasty Johnny forriners isn’t going to deliver a land of milk and honey upon which unicorns can dance on this sunlit uplands.

And in respect to the fishing industry at least Boris has been true to form. He promised the earth and then walked away once he f****d them up.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Or maybe we are merely pointing out the unpalatable fact to Brexiteers that their misplaced campaign to get rid of the yoke of those nasty Johnny forriners isn’t going to deliver a land of milk and honey upon which unicorns can dance on this sunlit uplands.

And in respect to the fishing industry at least Boris has been true to form. He promised the earth and then walked away once he f****d them up.

Do you really think the Brexit campaign was misplaced? I don't. I think it was long overdue. Both sides made campaign statements that with hindsight have turned out not to be correct (project Fear and claims about how easy it will be to get a deal), but I think most Brexiteers would take where we are now. The EU is just coming across as bitter and twisted. Despite all their spin about how the 27 stuck together in harmony to face off the UK, it's quite clear the EU countries are fighting like ferrets in a sack. There is more disharmony than harmony and now without Brexit to present that united front, we can see the real scale of EU factions, fractiousness and fragmentation. If anyone is harbouring resentment about the outcome, it's the Remainers who point to every disagreement with the EU to try and claim it as some sort of victory and to exclaim it wouldn't have happened had we stayed in the EU. Between 2003 and 2017 the European Commission opened over 750 complaints against the UK for failing to follow or apply EU law, so you can see that whilst we were members of the EU, the relationship wasn't always the best it could be.

As for fishing, the current state of affairs isn't acceptable to say the least and one would hope that the UK takes a line that seeks to bring some resolution. In the mean time it is clear we are working ourselves away from the EU, so the impact of future disputes will be much reduced and will reduce even less influence that the EU can bring to bare on our trade and industries.

 

[James Wood]

Do you really think the Brexit campaign was misplaced? I don't. I think it was long overdue. Both sides made campaign statements that with hindsight have turned out not to be correct (project Fear and claims about how easy it will be to get a deal), but I think most Brexiteers would take where we are now. The EU is just coming across as bitter and twisted. Despite all their spin about how the 27 stuck together in harmony to face off the UK, it's quite clear the EU countries are fighting like ferrets in a sack. There is more disharmony than harmony and now without Brexit to present that united front, we can see the real scale of EU factions, fractiousness and fragmentation. If anyone is harbouring resentment about the outcome, it's the Remainers who point to every disagreement with the EU to try and claim it as some sort of victory and to exclaim it wouldn't have happened had we stayed in the EU. Between 2003 and 2017 the European Commission opened over 750 complaints against the UK for failing to follow or apply EU law, so you can see that whilst we were members of the EU, the relationship wasn't always the best it could be.

As for fishing, the current state of affairs isn't acceptable to say the least and one would hope that the UK takes a line that seeks to bring some resolution. In the mean time it is clear we are working ourselves away from the EU, so the impact of future disputes will be much reduced and will reduce even less influence that the EU can bring to bare on our trade and industries.

But I thought that Brexit was all about ‘Taking back control’ - that was what Boris, Gove, Rees-Smug et al promised.

Strange that none of the front bench have been to any fishing community recently for a photo opportunity and to espouse the benefits of Brexit to the locals employed in the industry.

I think that they better get there sharpish as if they delay it for much longer there won’t be a U.K. fishing industry!

 

[James Wood]

If I have this right, Nicola Sturgeon is accused of lying to the Scottish Parliament and the BBC reports that if found guilty she will ‘have to resign’, but Boris Johnson has been proven to lie to the UK Parliament multiple times and is able to do so with impunity.?

Another example of Johnson telling porkies to the HoC. No calls for him from the MSM to resign though....

Quelle surprise....

Covid contracts still unpublished despite Boris Johnson's claim

Days after the PM said all contracts were "on the record", government lawyers admitted many were not.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[James Wood]

Another example of Johnson telling porkies to the HoC. No calls for him from the MSM to resign though....

Quelle surprise....

Covid contracts still unpublished despite Boris Johnson's claim

Days after the PM said all contracts were "on the record", government lawyers admitted many were not.

www.bbc.co.uk

I also see that HM Government have come to an out of court settlement with former senior Civil Servant Sir Phillip Rutnam who was subject to the bullying actions of our lovely, sweet Home Secretary Priti Patel.

Yes, the very same Minister who broke the ministerial code but is still in post.

Strange that the Tories are calling for Nicola Sturgeon to go for allegedly breaking the code when Patel has been found guilty of doing so........??

 

[Andy]

Strange that the Tories are calling for Nicola Sturgeon to go for allegedly breaking the code when Patel has been found guilty of doing so........??

It isn’t strange at all though is it? The SNP were the same when the shoe was on the other foot.

Welcome to the hypocrisy of politics. Shouldn’t be a surprise my now ?

 

[Knutsfordian]

But I thought that Brexit was all about ‘Taking back control’ - that was what Boris, Gove, Rees-Smug et al promised.

Strange that none of the front bench have been to any fishing community recently for a photo opportunity and to espouse the benefits of Brexit to the locals employed in the industry.

I think that they better get there sharpish as if they delay it for much longer there won’t be a U.K. fishing industry!

So the taking back control and the phasing in of complete control of our waters is somehow a major defeat because the EU are refusing to allow UK caught shellfish to be exported to the EU? There's an old adage that goes along the lines of fight one battle at a time, battles and wars, so lose a battle but win the war. So in the short term the EU think they have scored a victory but when it comes to the renegotiation of the fisheries agreement the UK will have moved on and EU access will no longer be the given access they now have and the world will not be how they now think it is.

The EU are posturing because they think that as the 27 they have the whip hand - and maybe in the short term they have. But given that the UK is expanding its export markets, reducing its reliance on the EU, setting up alternative trade routes (eg via Algiers to bypass Spain) in a few years we will be totally free of EU influence, trade, cars, food and so on. They can gloat now - but it will bite them in the end.

This latest spat with Australia over vaccines shows the EU in its true colours. Countries don't forget and they will take their business and businesses elsewhere and so shall we.

 

[Andy]

This latest spat with Australia over vaccines shows the EU in its true colours. Countries don't forget and they will take their business and businesses elsewhere and so shall we.

Another example of the bitterness and nastiness of the isolationist EU.

I hope the UK sends some of our excess vaccines to Australia.

 

[James Wood]

Another example of the bitterness and nastiness of the isolationist EU.

I hope the UK sends some of our excess vaccines to Australia.

Oh, and the U.K. have behaved impeccably by unilaterally extending the grace period for exports to NI haven’t they?

 

[Knutsfordian]

Oh, and the U.K. have behaved impeccably by unilaterally extending the grace period for exports to NI haven’t they?

If you were doing some sort of implementation at work and you started to hit some difficulties, you would have to assess your options and try and take a path that delivered the project with minimal impact on your business, or cancel it all together. This is no different.

Given that cancelling the project would be a final blow to the NI protocol, amending the grace periods is probably the easiest, least impact, most reasonable option - except if your the EU who seem to want to inflict the maximum pain to prove a point.

There is also some debate whether the UK have acted outside of the protocol rules - and it does not necessarily appear that they have.

So what we have is an event that is coming to typify a fractious EU/UK relationship whereby the EU really hasn't forgiven us for having the audacity to leave. There is something fundamentally wrong when it is easier to ship goods out of Africa via Tangiers than across the channel from France. Those barriers are not of the UK's making, as evidenced by our trade with the rest of the world. There is no reason why trade with the EU should be so difficult or the relationship so poor - unless it is what the EU wants it to be.

I absolutely accept that Brexit has upset the applecart in respect of ease of movement of goods, but this hiding behind protocols and unnecessary barriers will destroy trading relationships and not just with the UK. When countries like Australia start to fall out with the EU because of their heavy handedness, they are only hurting themselves.

 

[James Wood]

It would have been pretty easy to prevent 3000 Spaniards visiting Liverpool last March.....?

Exactly one year ago today, Johnson chose to attend England vs Wales at Twickenham - to doctors' utter disbelief. Covid cases in the UK were rising exponentially. Italy’s death toll had just grown sixfold in six days. The PM's arrogance & hubris were stunning.

 

[Phil Bradley]

Clearly you don't think our elections are fair and open - so no hope for democracy in your eyes then. Your endless and boundless cynicism, not to mention your bitterness, at being on the wrong side of the Brexit referendum must make your life very miserable. Its a shame really as you may have to endure many Brexit years before another referendum can take place, by which time rejoining the EU may not even be an option for the UK (even if the EU exists).

What also comes across is a wish to visit all the possible ills of a miserable Brexit upon the UK to prove a point and see the UK fragment so that you can sit there and say well I told you so in the manner of James O'Brien . In the best interest of all the people of this country we need to be as successful as we can be, so really there is little room for rancour and bitterness - and all you are achieving is to make your own views more unpalatable to those you wish to persuade otherwise

Fair? Not really, I would support proportional representation. Our implementation of democracy is being exposed as flawed. I think we need protection from the excesses of a single party. Particularly one that can get elected with an 80 seat majority with less than 50% (43.6% from recall) support from the electorate.

On that basis I make no apologies for what you call cynicism! Don't get me started on the farce of a referendum on 2016, won on lies, dubious funding and what I consider a rather brilliant social media campaign. Even so an outcome that wouldn't change the constitution of a golf club yet was taken as a justification to override the status quo.

i would love it to be a success despite your opinion that I wish to visit all the possible miserable ills of brexit on the UK. However there is not one iota of proof that anything relating to brexit is a success. It is proving to be a disaster without any of my help and despite all of your flannel and flummery. I continue calling out these failings despite your gagging calls. When it happens I'll tell you that I told you so. You deserve to be reminded.

Remember, it was you who voted for this ever unfolding shitshow, not me. You and your Tory idols and forum sycophants. Own the mess.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Fair? Not really, I would support proportional representation. Our implementation of democracy is being exposed as flawed. I think we need protection from the excesses of a single party. Particularly one that can get elected with an 80 seat majority with less than 50% (43.6% from recall) support from the electorate.

On that basis I make no apologies for what you call cynicism! Don't get me started on the farce of a referendum on 2016, won on lies, dubious funding and what I consider a rather brilliant social media campaign. Even so an outcome that wouldn't change the constitution of a golf club yet was taken as a justification to override the status quo.

i would love it to be a success despite your opinion that I wish to visit all the possible miserable ills of brexit on the UK. However there is not one iota of proof that anything relating to brexit is a success. It is proving to be a disaster without any of my help and despite all of your flannel and flummery. I continue calling out these failings despite your gagging calls. When it happens I'll tell you that I told you so. You deserve to be reminded.

Remember, it was you who voted for this ever unfolding shitshow, not me. You and your Tory idols and forum sycophants. Own the mess.

Whether you like it, or not, the democratic system we have in place is accepted by the majority of people in this country and attempts to reform the voting systems have generally failed. A modification that did have success in making onto the statue books - the Fixed Term Parliament Act - is also likely to be repealed. It seems therefore that the status quo is likely to be in place for some time. It seems therefore that the majority of people in this country do have faith in the process and most elected governments are just marginally either side of centre. Anything that is viewed as being too far in either direction gets rejected, as Corbyn found out to his cost.

With regard to referenda, there is always the possibility that government may not get its preferred outcome, which is why we were denied votes on the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties. With regard to the Brexit referendum, you argue passionately that the outcome was driven by lies and untruths, but the Remain side of the debate were equally guilty with project fear. What you really need to ask yourself was that from a position of being inside the EU for nigh on 50 years, with all the offices of state and international policy units firmly supporting staying in the EU, allied with project Fear, how the hell did Remain fail to win? People should have been frightened to death to vote Leave - but the majority still did !!! What governments failed to recognise, and John Major was particularly culpable in this, is that by denying people a say on Europe for so long, when the time came they would take it with a vengeance. And that they did !! The remain camp also could not point to any substantial value of being in the EU for the previous 5 decades !!

Despite all the rhetoric about how great is the EU, a vast number of people in this country do not believe in a Federal Europe, its entities, policies, institutions or leaders. We want to be governed by our own leaders, with our own institutions. Recent events have shown that the EU does not, maybe cannot, act in the best interests of all member states all the time. For me that is unacceptable. I do not wish to be part of an organisation whereby the financial contribution of this country isn't matched by the EU's commitment to do the best it can for the UK, with that commitment increasing as the move to a federal Europe continues. It hasn't done that for a long time and the people of this country can see it hasn't done that for a long time and that its not going to do that in a federal Europe - and that's why they voted Leave !!!

So is Brexit a success? In its entirety it is too early to say. We are slowly navigating a path away from the EU. Trade deals (which peeps said would take years to negotiate) are rapidly falling into place. Nissan is building cars in Sunderland, Free Port policies are being developed, City of London regaining its mojo. Sterling value increasing. Stock markets stable. House prices stable and so on. Yes, there are some issues and the relationship with the EU is fractious, but no more than one would really expect - and there is probably more to come.

So is Brexit the shitshow that you would like it to be - no its isn't. Do we own it? Well yes I am happy to own it and those you call forum sycophants will have their own views and thoughts - but being derogatory about those who aren't on the side of the EU and Remain does little to further the discussion that it was the wrong answer and whether we should rejoin (which for the record, I don't think we will and certainly hope we don't). And for the record my Brexit Idols weren't Nigel Farrage or Boris Johnson, but Peter Shore and Barbara Castle! Leftwing politicians with a clear view of what the EEC really meant and who were so casually dumped by a Labour movement hell bent on reinventing itself as Internationalist and EU embracing, but without telling its voters and supporters - but then none of that would really matter to you would it because you think we were gulled by a pouting blond and a big red bus

 

[Andy]

Knutsfordian, I wouldn’t waste your time, he’s convinced himself that everyone that voted leave is a thick facist. Sad really.

 

[Phil Bradley]

Whether you like it, or not, the democratic system we have in place is accepted by the majority of people in this country and attempts to reform the voting systems have generally failed. A modification that did have success in making onto the statue books - the Fixed Term Parliament Act - is also likely to be repealed. It seems therefore that the status quo is likely to be in place for some time. It seems therefore that the majority of people in this country do have faith in the process and most elected governments are just marginally either side of centre. Anything that is viewed as being too far in either direction gets rejected, as Corbyn found out to his cost.

With regard to referenda, there is always the possibility that government may not get its preferred outcome, which is why we were denied votes on the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties. With regard to the Brexit referendum, you argue passionately that the outcome was driven by lies and untruths, but the Remain side of the debate were equally guilty with project fear. What you really need to ask yourself was that from a position of being inside the EU for nigh on 50 years, with all the offices of state and international policy units firmly supporting staying in the EU, allied with project Fear, how the hell did Remain fail to win? People should have been frightened to death to vote Leave - but the majority still did !!! What governments failed to recognise, and John Major was particularly culpable in this, is that by denying people a say on Europe for so long, when the time came they would take it with a vengeance. And that they did !! The remain camp also could not point to any substantial value of being in the EU for the previous 5 decades !!

Despite all the rhetoric about how great is the EU, a vast number of people in this country do not believe in a Federal Europe, its entities, policies, institutions or leaders. We want to be governed by our own leaders, with our own institutions. Recent events have shown that the EU does not, maybe cannot, act in the best interests of all member states all the time. For me that is unacceptable. I do not wish to be part of an organisation whereby the financial contribution of this country isn't matched by the EU's commitment to do the best it can for the UK, with that commitment increasing as the move to a federal Europe continues. It hasn't done that for a long time and the people of this country can see it hasn't done that for a long time and that its not going to do that in a federal Europe - and that's why they voted Leave !!!

So is Brexit a success? In its entirety it is too early to say. We are slowly navigating a path away from the EU. Trade deals (which peeps said would take years to negotiate) are rapidly falling into place. Nissan is building cars in Sunderland, Free Port policies are being developed, City of London regaining its mojo. Sterling value increasing. Stock markets stable. House prices stable and so on. Yes, there are some issues and the relationship with the EU is fractious, but no more than one would really expect - and there is probably more to come.

So is Brexit the shitshow that you would like it to be - no its isn't. Do we own it? Well yes I am happy to own it and those you call forum sycophants will have their own views and thoughts - but being derogatory about those who aren't on the side of the EU and Remain does little to further the discussion that it was the wrong answer and whether we should rejoin (which for the record, I don't think we will and certainly hope we don't). And for the record my Brexit Idols weren't Nigel Farrage or Boris Johnson, but Peter Shore and Barbara Castle! Leftwing politicians with a clear view of what the EEC really meant and who were so casually dumped by a Labour movement hell bent on reinventing itself as Internationalist and EU embracing, but without telling its voters and supporters - but then none of that would really matter to you would it because you think we were gulled by a pouting blond and a big red bus

I'd never describe you as a pouting blond. Spouting bore maybe.

 

[Phil Bradley]

Knutsfordian, I wouldn’t waste your time, he’s convinced himself that everyone that voted leave is a thick facist. Sad really.

if the cap fits ...