New ground

[Alan M]

Alan, Am I not correct in thinking that Wimborne's ground is being compulsorily purchased for housing ? That's another worry 1874 would be spared

Yes, the proposal went through council planning in December. 203 houses on that site plus the promise from the house developers of a replacement stadium on the old Cobham Aviation site. Suffice to say we all know what happens when developers promise new stadia.

 

[Kit]

I have been led to believe previously that this land belongs to the Owner of the Golf Club Kit - i could be wrong though. Personally I've always seen this site as an ideal (in a perfect world) location for any new ground for us but I'm assuming that it isn't as easy as that or we would probably already be there!

Thanks, Stan. Has anyone from the club made contact? How about a tie up with the Grange school and their large amount of land between Hartford/Weaverham. Hartford High and all the pitches they’ve got? All these may have been discussed but I’d like to know they’ve all been discounted.

 

[Frank Fallows]

I Blackie, I do understand your comments and you have every right to voice them and I do agree that money was spent needlessly on the Stadium model, but it happened and there is nothing that can be done, perhaps this event may well have contributed to 74 being chosen for the future by showing the dedication of the Committee and owners., just a thought but perhaps !!. LP

 

[Alan M]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I do not believe that at the time the modelling was commissioned there was any hint of this Cheshire FA development. Instead, as I understand it, it was seen as a necessary piece in the jigsaw of showing that the search for suitable land was to be taken seriously by others with whom discussions were held and by those who hold the keys to the various possible funding pots. A bit like producing all the extra stuff around a business plan before you go cap in hand to the bank etc and ask them to invest in your business. As such, I agree with Frank - it was evidence of the club's serious intent in looking to progress and grow.

 

[Tony Fallows]

This weeks Northwich Guardian reports that it was the original intention to build this facility in Northwich but the commercial price of land in the Northwich area precluded this and therefore the site at Winsford was chosen where presumably the land price is cheaper.

 

[Ben]

Not posted on here for a while but I've had a good read through the thread. Nice to see such a sensible discussion with good points on both sides.

Although, I am disappointed the site isn't in Northwich, on the whole I'd support us moving to this new facility at Knights Grange if it come to fruition. It would be a chance to play at a world class stadium with excellent facilities that could potentially allow us to grow as a club and attract new fans and better players. So many non league clubs would love this opportunity.

I appreciate it's not in Northwich but many clubs don't play in their own towns. There would be no need to change our name as that's a nod to our heritage and where we come from, not just the location. As others have said, there's no reason why we can't continue to look at other options to move back to Northwich if we become tenants at any new ground. That will be difficult though with no obvious land in Northwich to build a ground on and the cost involved. If the Cheshire FA couldn't find anything suitable, what are our chances?

We have to be realistic and I applaud the board for even giving us the opportunity to play at this new facility. They deserve to be congratulated for showing ambition and putting our club forward for this new ground when no other clubs in the area were considered. That says a lot about them, our fans and the way we run this club and our standing in the community.

Nothing is set in stone yet and I'd like to see a vote amongst members when we know more about the ground. But my overall view would be that this is a fantastic opportunity and one we should grab with both hands if it comes to fruition.

 

[Hew Jarse]

Not posted on here for a while but I've had a good read through the thread. Nice to see such a sensible discussion with good points on both sides.

Although, I am disappointed the site isn't in Northwich, on the whole I'd support us moving to this new facility at Knights Grange if it come to fruition. It would be a chance to play at a world class stadium with excellent facilities that could potentially allow us to grow as a club and attract new fans and better players. So many non league clubs would love this opportunity.

I appreciate it's not in Northwich but many clubs don't play in their own towns. There would be no need to change our name as that's a nod to our heritage and where we come from, not just the location. As others have said, there's no reason why we can't continue to look at other options to move back to Northwich if we become tenants at any new ground. That will be difficult though with no obvious land in Northwich to build a ground on and the cost involved. If the Cheshire FA couldn't find anything suitable, what are our chances?

We have to be realistic and I applaud the board for even giving us the opportunity to play at this new facility. They deserve to be congratulated for showing ambition and putting our club forward for this new ground when no other clubs in the area were considered. That says a lot about them, our fans and the way we run this club and our standing in the community.

Nothing is set in stone yet and I'd like to see a vote amongst members when we know more about the ground. But my overall view would be that this is a fantastic opportunity and one we should grab with both hands if it comes to fruition.

 

[Hew Jarse]

Out of interest Ben where did you get the information that no other clubs in the area have been considered

 

[James Wood]

Thanks, Stan. Has anyone from the club made contact? How about a tie up with the Grange school and their large amount of land between Hartford/Weaverham. Hartford High and all the pitches they’ve got? All these may have been discussed but I’d like to know they’ve all been discounted.

Kit - You have to ask yourself the question why on earth would the Grange school want a ruddy great football stadium on their sports field? How would they stand to benefit from this? Can you imagine someone from '74 requesting a meeting with the Head and Governors and putting forward such a suggestion?

'Yes. we'd like to use some of your land to build ourselves a football ground. Err no. we're sorry, but we can't see what you might gain from it, but you would be supporting a community club.'

If I were them I'd tell '74 to sling their hook and go and find their own patch of land!

The one thing we've managed to maintain throughout our search for a permanent home in the last 5 years is our credibility. That is why we've been able to have the types of discssuons we've had with CWaC re Moss Farm and CFA about Vision 20/20. Chasing what IMO are complete non-starters would not only be a waste of the the scarce time that I initially and now Alex has to find 74 a permanent home, but it would seriously jeopardise the work we've done to get us into such a good position.

 

[James Wood]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I do not believe that at the time the modelling was commissioned there was any hint of this Cheshire FA development. Instead, as I understand it, it was seen as a necessary piece in the jigsaw of showing that the search for suitable land was to be taken seriously by others with whom discussions were held and by those who hold the keys to the various possible funding pots. A bit like producing all the extra stuff around a business plan before you go cap in hand to the bank etc and ask them to invest in your business. As such, I agree with Frank - it was evidence of the club's serious intent in looking to progress and grow.

Alan - As ever, you are spot on. The Generic stadium plan was a key part in us building up our credibility with those parties who we knew we might need to influence and convince that we were serious about finding a home for '74 in Northwich. Had we turned up at meetings with these bodies with a rough sketch on an A4 sheet of paper then I doubt we'd ever have got past first base. Was it a waste of money? Well, i'm clearly biased on this one, so I'll leave it to others to decide if that was the case or not. But it does seem a bit odd that the CFA are looking to build a 3000 capacity stadium - which is exactly the brief we gave to FWP and from which they subsequently produced the plans and cost estimates.

 

[James Wood]

This weeks Northwich Guardian reports that it was the original intention to build this facility in Northwich but the commercial price of land in the Northwich area precluded this and therefore the site at Winsford was chosen where presumably the land price is cheaper.

Tony - it is also interesting to note that 18 months after it was sold for £80k, the 6.5 acre plot of land off Runcorn Road opposite the Red Lion antique centre - which we did consider and would have just about been bigenough to build a ground on - remains unchanged.

As far as I'm aware, no planning application has yet been lodged for any development on this site and although I've no idea who purchased it, I'll wager it is now in the 'land-bank' of some housing developer.

But this just goes to show how expensive undeveloped land is in and around Northwich and the massive task we would have faced to buy a plot of our own. Yet another reason why we opted to persue MF as our No1 option - comapred to the many others, it was one of the most affordable.

 

[Alan M]

Interesting and well-chosen words (as always) from Wayne G in today's Newsletter.

 

[James Wood]

Some of us dont have a 9-5 frank or are retired. If i could fit more in around my 48 hr a week shift work i would.
Just because i dont come on here with the "suck up" posts looking for "likes" doesn't mean i dont appreciate what the board does, i do, but being volunteers doesn't mean they do everything right! The diagrams were a costly useless exercise carried out by a member of the board without any consultation with supporters. The agreement with the FA should have been held back until the location was 100% confirmed.
Its a learning curve for everyone!
Perhaps in future we will not be as hasty to "boast" about what might be before it actually is!

Blackie - you have every right to post your views on this forum - that is partly its purpose. But free speech comes with some responsibilities, the main once being that you do your utmost to get the facts straight. Unfortunately, in this instance you have patently failed in this aim. So I thought for the benefit of both yourself and others I'd provide you with a few regarding the devellopment of the Generic Stadium Plan (or costly useless exercise as you term it).

So, lets start at the beginning shall we?

• I think most people will agree that before you build anything new, it is a pretty good idea to have a plan of what it is that you want and what functions you expect this new thing to fulfil.
• You also need a site upon which to build the thing you want and you also need to ensure that you have sufficient space to build it in. Or if you haven't secured a site and are looking for one, you need to know what size of site you will need.
• You also need to think about other matters that might influence what you plan to build and how it might function / deliver your requirements, such as necessary regulations and rules pertaining to what you plan to construct (Green Guide, FA Requirements, Safety at Sports Grounds Act etc)
• Its also useful to have an idea of how much it might cost and therefore whether you can afford it.
• Furthermore, you need to consider its impact on the immediate vicinity and how your proposed development may be viewed by those bodies who have the say-so in whether the development is approved or not.
• If you are looking for 3rd party funding to help you build your project, then I'd further suggest that you would need all of the above information.

The Generic Stadium plan met each of the 6 criteria set out above. And by producing it, we were able to convince the likes of the CFA, CWaC etc that we were serious in our plans and ambitions and it opened doors that would probably have stayed shut had we not opted not to comission FWP.

Now, if I may, I'd like to pick up your accusation that that "The diagrams were ........ carried out by a member of the board without any consultation with supporters."

I'm sorry, but that just isn't true.

For a start, the club is managed by the Board and we make collective decisions and stand or fall by these. The Board were unaminous in agreeing to place the comission with FWP - so how can you say that I somehow did this without the backing of my fellow Board members?

Frankly, I'm not bothered about what you think I did or didn't do, but what has annoyed me the most about you post is the accusation that the supporters / members were not kept in the loop.

Might I bring your attention to the minutes of the 2015 AGM and in particular paragraphs 3.7 and 3.8 of the Stadium Development Sub-Committee(SDSC) report? These are reproduced verbatim below

3.7 Furthermore, the Board has also considered developing a number of ‘generic’ options which range from to purchasing a piece of land upon which we can develop our own stadium to developing a multi-use facility with one or more local sporting clubs and institutions.

3.8 In relation to the ‘generic’ solution, the Board has agreed to explore the ‘concept’ of a engaging a suitably experienced company to develop a ‘generic’ stadium plan that would be initially capable of hosting Step 5 football but could be easily extended / added to if and when required so that it could host Step 3 football. Our reasons for doing this are five-fold.

• To determine what level of facility we might need to construct in order to operate at the level we currently playing and aspire to be playing at
• To ascertain the likely cost of constructing such a stadium
• To better understand the planning and other regulatory issues that we may need to take into account when developing any such facility
• To provide Members and supporters with a vision for the future that they can become enthused about, but is also feasible and, in the longer-term, affordable
• To utilise plans, drawings and graphical representations when we meet key parties so that they readily understand the clubs’ vision and to convince them that our intentions regarding finding 1874 a permanent home in Northwich are both serious and authentic.

Might I further refer you to the SDSC report to the 2016 AGM, specifically paragraphs 2.2 - 2.5 incl and 3.1 - 3.4 incl, all of which related to the development of the Generic Stadium Plan.

Copies of all the AGM reports and the minutes are made available to all members so I find your view that members / supporters weren't consulted somewhat puzzling. And I certainly can't recall many members objecting to the Board's plans at either AGM.

But maybe they took place when you were back supporting the Vics eh?

Anyhow, last but not least I'd like to deal with the cost.

Yes, £5500 did represent a significant financial outlay for a club of our size, but I can tell you the decision to spend this amount was not taken lightly by the Board. Indeed, if I recall, we did consider calling a Special GM to discuss this one matter but decided against it. But the comission was only awarded after we'd gone through a rigrous compeitive tendering exercise that was awarded on the basis of both cost and quality. And you might not believe me when I say it, but working in the construction industry I know what the hourly charge-out rates for senior Architects, Engineers and QS's are and believe me what we got for our money was a bargain.

Anyhow, I hope that this mail has filled a few gaps in your knowledge about this particualr mattter.

 

[Kit]

Kit - You have to ask yourself the question why on earth would the Grange school want a ruddy great football stadium on their sports field? How would they stand to benefit from this? Can you imagine someone from '74 requesting a meeting with the Head and Governors and putting forward such a suggestion?

'Yes. we'd like to use some of your land to build ourselves a football ground. Err no. we're sorry, but we can't see what you might gain from it, but you would be supporting a community club.'

If I were them I'd tell '74 to sling their hook and go and find their own patch of land!

The one thing we've managed to maintain throughout our search for a permanent home in the last 5 years is our credibility. That is why we've been able to have the types of discssuons we've had with CWaC re Moss Farm and CFA about Vision 20/20. Chasing what IMO are complete non-starters would not only be a waste of the the scarce time that I initially and now Alex has to find 74 a permanent home, but it would seriously jeopardise the work we've done to get us into such a good position.

James, you are clearly irked by some posts on here. It wouldn’t be a ‘bloody big stadium’. It would be a stadium that could facilitate the lower tiers of non-league football. The Grange have a theatre and a huge sports complex in development. They might want a small dual purpose stadium to add to their portfolio. It would look bloody good in their prospectus and THEY would obviously use it too. They are part of a NorthWest football league and play games regularly. If you don’t ask you never know. If this is the attitude I can see why we have got nowhere.
On a side note, I am a fan of the club, am looking to explore options and don’t appreciate the condescending tone.

 

[Blackie]

James, thank you for that long drawn out explanation, i did read most of it!
Obviously you consider that us mere mortals dont understand the highly technical job you and the engineering people do.....thank god we are still considered capable enough though to vote on the clubs important issues.....like next seasons away strip!.

Now, if I may, I'd like to pick up your accusation that that "The diagrams were ........ carried out by a member of the board without any consultation with supporters."

I'm sorry, but that just isn't true.

For a start, the club is managed by the Board and we make collective decisions and stand or fall by these. The Board were unaminous in agreeing to place the comission with FWP - so how can you say that I somehow did this without the backing of my fellow Board members?

I didnt say you did it without the boards backing, as you've clearly quoted above (in fact i never mentioned you by name at all!), Yes the board are supporters too but by supporters i meant the the members who pay their money each month and im sure an intelligent person like you (as you like to let us know), knew this.

Just a note, i wasn't off watching Vics at the time, i wasn't a member then just merely a supporter putting my money through the gate. When i asked i was told only members were privy to this info and that i would need to become one to get this, so i would question your statement that members AND supporters had this info. Members did, supporters were drip fed after the agm.
Thanks also for 'considering' asking our views at your special GM.....although deciding against it. Although that does make our fan run club sound slightly like the normal board run clubs.

 

[James Wood]

James, you are clearly irked by some posts on here. It wouldn’t be a ‘bloody big stadium’. It would be a stadium that could facilitate the lower tiers of non-league football. The Grange have a theatre and a huge sports complex in development. They might want a small dual purpose stadium to add to their portfolio. It would look bloody good in their prospectus and THEY would obviously use it too. They are part of a NorthWest football league and play games regularly. If you don’t ask you never know. If this is the attitude I can see why we have got nowhere.
On a side note, I am a fan of the club, am looking to explore options and don’t appreciate the condescending tone.

Kit - I'm not irked by some of the posts. What I'm trying to do is to provide a little bit of reality and context into the posts on this forum.

At risk of sounding like a stuck record, can I ask you why an indpendent school might want a football stadium on their sports field? How would this 'look good' in their prospectus? How might they 'use' it? I'm sorry if I sound condescending, but I doubt that the average schools game attracts 50 people. So what benefit might they have in having a 1900 capacity stadium (which is the minimum for Step 3) along with all the other linked requirements we'd need to provide (i.e. car parking)? I'm sorry if I might be missing something here, but as yet no-one has provided any compelling reason why this might be an attractive option to the Grange school.

 

[James Wood]

Kit - I'm not irked by some of the posts. What I'm trying to do is to provide a little bit of reality and context into the posts on this forum.

At risk of sounding like a stuck record, can I ask you why an indpendent school might want a football stadium on their sports field? How would this 'look good' in their prospectus? How might they 'use' it? I'm sorry if I sound condescending, but I doubt that the average schools game attracts 50 people. So what benefit might they have in having a 1900 capacity stadium (which is the minimum for Step 3) along with all the other linked requirements we'd need to provide (i.e. car parking)? I'm sorry if I might be missing something here, but as yet no-one has provided any compelling reason why this might be an attractive option to the Grange school (or indeed any other similar organisation).

Blackie - Given that I was the Board member who had the task of finding us a home in Northwich at the time that we as a Board agreed to go ahead with the development of the Generic stadium plan, I think that your statement that "The diagrams were a costly useless exercise carried out by a member of the board without any consultation with supporters" make it quite clear whom you are making reference to.

You state in an earlier post that "you know me Jack i say on here no different than i do on the terraces" but clearly your previous comments demonstrate that you haven't got the guts to say this to me personally. So

Furthermore, given the evidence I have supplied, are you willing to retract your assertion that "the exercise was carried out by a member of the board without any consultation with supporters".

Go on. Surprise me.

 

[Alan M]

Having been a governor in both a state school and an independent school I would say that a state school might jump at such an opportunity, but probably no longer has the land available for it to come to fruition after most have been "encouraged" to sell off any spare capacity land, while an independent school (or at least the one I've been associated with) would see it (rightly or wrongly) as an intrusion on their bubble and if anything an inconvenience to have to accommodate several hundred locals at the weekend, a time when they are focused heavily on their own sporting events. I don't know the Grange though, so I won't claim any local knowledge in this respect. Maybe they're different.

 

[Kit]

James, all I can say is, it’s a massive site and what harm does it do to ask the question? How do we know they are not looking to do something with it? How do we know they won’t be under pressure in the future to provide more links with the community? They’ve developed every other area of the school.
You say a 1900 capacity ground, but we are basically talking about a tarmac area around a pitch, a few seats and floodlights.
I personally can’t fathom why we wouldn’t approach them. If we are turned away, that’s fine. You might plant a seed for the future though - I fail to understand why we would lose credibility by approaching different organisations, as long as it’s done professionally which of course it would be.
I’m personally surprised and disappointed by the attitude. I thought we would have been exploring every avenue, no matter how slim the chances. I’m now wondering what other potential opportunities we are just presuming are no-goers without actually exploring it. Maybe we have a different mind set but I don’t believe any line of enquiry is ‘wasting time’. One closed door might provide something else of interest. ‘We can’t help you but...’

 

[Kit]

Having been a governor in both a state school and an independent school I would say that a state school might jump at such an opportunity, but probably no longer has the land available for it to come to fruition

There’s still a large area of sports land on Hartford Campus behind Hartford High, with 3G pitches already on site. Approach them, offer them use of what we are able to build.