BREXIT THE MOVIE

[Alan M]

A good balanced view, most of which I would also agree with, though it does rather gloss over the difficulties that the EU is going to face in introducing fiscal unity, mostly due to their own over-ambition in rushing to accept the likes of Greece into the Eurozone. The UK's half-hearted membership was always going to be precarious - the others have a lot more to lose by leaving.

On borders (above), the "open border" is the Schengen area, which we have never been part of and which has had its weaknesses exposed by the influx of refugees and migrants over the past year or so. These refugees/migrants have little hope of walking into the UK under current arrangements (hence the chaos of Calais). The strong pull factor with the UK is not just the economy but the language - not many of these refugees/migrants speak Hungarian, Spanish, German etc, but a high proportion (as most of them have been shown to be from the more educated sections of society in their own country) speak a reasonable level of English, at least enough to get by. That's not a defence of their possible wish to come here, just an explanation.

And yes, we should take our "fair share" of those fleeing the persecution, bombs and carnage.

 

[Blackie]

Blackie - and what about those thousands of young children who have suffered experiences and horrors that I hope no child in this country will ever have to experience and that are now part of the exodus from these war-torn hell-holes with their parents and wider families in an attempt to forge a better life for themselves? Even the ways they have to achieve this aim exposes them to massive dangers. Cannot you recall the pictures of that poor 5 year old washed up on a Greek beach 12 months ago? Have you no pity, no compassion, no heart? Should we - as the Fifth most prosperous economy in the world - not seek to alleviate this pain, suffering and despair? Should we not be looking to take more than the pitiful 2000 per year suggested by Cameron? Do you not see any parallels between the current situation and that in the 1930's when we accepted thousands of Jews and others from Europe (including the Poles who not only fought bravely for us but created a vibrant community in the Mid Cheshire area that has lasted to this day)? Should we not be looking to be more outward looking, progressive, tolerant, positive and pluralistic society??

Because I can tell you that this is how we are generally viewed by the world. An that is why so many people want to live and work here and regard British culture as the benchmark above all others. This is something I and we all should be justifiably proud of.

If you can't, and you are with the likes of Farage (whom, like Boris, Cameron and I suspect soon to be joined by Gideon) have decided to walk away from the unholy pile of shite that they have created without putting in place a plan as to how it might be sorted, then I'm sorry, I think that you need to take a long, hard look at yourself.

Atticus,
I hope you can read this from that high horse!, but I'll repeat what I've written in the past just for you.
Refugees and immigrants are two different things to me. I've never had any problem with housing refugees from war torn countries and have never said so. If I have please feel free to quote me!
Immigrants are a different ball game. This country is only so big and the schools and nhs system etc can only take so much.
I've never said I don't want foriegn people coming over to work but I'm a big believer of the Australian system that people should have a job before they enter the country.
This would help keep numbers at a lower level and help the said schooling and nhs systems.
If you want a pat on the back and people like Phil giving you likes please don't look for them with cheap shots by trying to make me a bad person just because I care about the country and the strain it's under!!
Shall I state again and maybe it might sink in eventually to some, voting no doesn't make you a racist!!!
And just for one further point, what the hell is your rant in response to!?, what has refugees got to do with the march in London and the points about bad parenting. No mention of anything to do with refugees/immigrants at all so what's your point?

 

[Alan M]

...although it must be noted that the Australian system results in refugees being consigned to camps on Nauru and Papua New Guinea.

And it is a common fallacy to say we don't have a points-based system. One based on the Australian system was introduced (for all non-EU obviously) by Labour in 2008. Neither of these systems stipulate you must have a job, though - another fallacy. The main difference is that the Australian one was devised to attract immigrants to fill skill gaps, while ours seems more aimed at putting obstacles in their path. Given the recent non-EU immigration stats of around 180,000 either the system or the government trying to enforce it is not doing a very good job. But we can't blame the immigrants for this failing, and exiting the EU isn't going to affect this part of the immigration figures, and I'm not sure what changes would need to be introduced to bring that 180,000 down - or what level would be seen as acceptable to Mr Average UK.

Details here for anyone interested:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29594642

 

[Atticus Finch]

.
Refugees and immigrants are two different things to me. I've never had any problem with housing refugees from war torn countries and have never said so. Immigrants are a different ball game.

Blackie - but they are not! Fundamentally they are looking for the same thing - a better life for themselves and their families. And can you blame them? If the position were reversed (and if I believed that there was a Lord, I'd be thanking him for this!) would you not be looking to do the same? Even despite the very real dangers and suffering many endure in trying to realise this dream?

And as I said in my original post, history tells us that the vast majority of immigrants end up making a positive impact to our country. I've alreasdy mentioned the Jewish and Polish waves that came here as a result of Hitler and WW2, then there were the West Indians who - lest we not forget - were invited and encouraged to come here in the late 40's and early 50's - and those who were forced out of Uganda by Idi Amin in the early '70's. Later on we had the influx from the Indian sub-continent and if you look further back in history we have also had periods of major immigration from Ireland and other parts of the world (China).

As Alan has explained so eloquently (as he always does), we do currently have very robust border controls, but the lies that Farage, Gove and Boris peddled were that these would have been swept away had we voted to remain. The risk is now that the French - quite understandably so in my view - will turn round and say to us why should they be sorting what is actually our problem on their soil and tell us to sod off and deal with the issues they are dealing with at Dover, Folkstone, Felixstowe and other Channel ports. So, we might end up with camps similar to those that exist in and around Calais in Kent, Essex and Sussex - which is ironic as many of these locations were bastions of UIKP / Brexit support!

And the stance that seems to be coming from the Brexiters that they would like to keep all the good points of bring a member of the EU in terms of Free Markets whilst ditching the things that are less appealing to them - such as the rights of free movement - will really stand us in good stead when we might be seeking to garner a favour or two from our continental cousins.

I said it on the morning of Friday 24 June that we are now left to deal with an absolute crock of shite and nothing that has happened in the time since has lead me to believe that anything has or will change in this respect for the medium to long term.

So I will say again, Cheers Dave. Cheers Boris, Cheers Donald Duck. Quitters all. I hope that you are truly proud of what you have done.

 

[Pete]

Rather than re-fighting the referendum all the time we should be looking ahead.
If Scotland succeed in getting another referendum on independence and vote to leave the UK and join the EU should we stop them? Hollyrood could easily be closed down and power returned to Westminster. The UK have voted to leave the EU and Scotland is PART of the UK. Cheshire (West or East or both!) won't be allowed independence so why should any other bit? If necessary troops would be stationed at strategic points to ensure order and keep the Union intact. It''s the will of the people that the whole Union leaves the EU.
Go on - discuss that!!!

 

[Alan M]

This is not re-fighting the referendum but looking at how we deal with the consequences - something those who led us out have largely walked away from. I see Farage was revelling in the UK political chaos today. It's not as if the rest of government should have been brought to a stop to deal with this, but we get the likes of Angela Lansbury (as one vox pop in Stockport named her today when shown a photo) seemingly thinking that's going to be the only task of a future government, Theresa May emerging from her slumbers over the past few months to declare herself the 'unite the country' figure who doesn't need an election to validate her rise to PM, and Michael Gove ... well, being Michael Gove. And then we have Jeremy Hunt seeming to declare he hasn't got a clue what to do next with the doctors and Nicky Morgan waffling her way through interviews about schools, including the apparent assertion that we should ignore the SATs results because they won't be a true comparison (so why do we have them in the first place or why were they changed to include impossibly difficult questions?). Plus the Labour Party unable to decide on its future direction let alone provide an effective opposition. I have friends in various EU countries shaking their heads in disbelief as we descend further into atrophy and chaos, but probably thinking they are better off without us in all honesty.

As for Scotland, I've already expressed the view that even the SNP are not so obsessed with independence that they'd launch themselves into that particular battle again in a hurry, given the poor state of the oil industry on which much of their economy would be based and given the improbability that the EU (particularly the likes of Spain) would make their membership an easy or fast-track option. But at least they've got a reasonably effective and coherent government in charge.

I realise the troops scenario was probably tongue-in-cheek, but I imagine that would be more likely to cause than to quell any unrest. And anyway, this govt has cut troop numbers so drastically that we'd have to use the TA, thus taking people away from their (presumably wealth-creating) jobs.

While we're busy throwing extra coals on the fire, what about the Irish border question?

 

[Pete]

Me? Tongue in cheek?
No, another referendum in Scotland in favour of independence is just what we need! In a fragmented country what pulls people together is a common enemy and Nicola Sturgeon and her band of skirted guerilla's could be a real gift. We invade Scotland and the rest of the country comes together and everything is solved.
As for Ireland that''s totally different and I wasn't going to raise it yet but as you've brought it up I'll deal with it. It may take time to quell the Scottish rebellion but once it's done then we invade the Republic of Ireland and start to rebuild the empire.
Everyone clear on that now?

 

[Alan M]

and Gibraltar?

 

[David Brown]

Atticus,
Refugees and immigrants are two different things to me. I've never had any problem with housing refugees from war torn countries and have never said so. If I have please feel free to quote me!

Blackie - but they are not! Fundamentally they are looking for the same thing - a better life for themselves and their families.

In law, the distinction between a refugee and a migrant is of great significance.

First and foremost, refugees enjoy a distinct and unique standard of protection under international law. A refugee has been defined under the 1951 Refugee Convention of the UNHCR and its 1967 Protocol as any person who, “owing to a well founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside of the country of his nationality and is unable, or is owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself the protection of that country”. With the evolution of international refugee law, this definition of convention refugees has been expanded to cover persons who have fled their countries due to armed conflicts, internal turmoil and situations involving gross and systematic violation of human rights. Such persons are typically referred to as humanitarian refugees. Refugees enjoy certain special protections under law, such as safety from deportation to the country where they face persecution; protection of basic human rights without racial or religious discrimination, or of national origin; access to fair and efficient asylum procedures; provision of administrative assistance, and so on.

On the other hand, migrants (persons who choose to leave their home state, principally in search of a better life, as opposed to escaping some form of persecution, internal strife or armed conflict) do not enjoy any protection and/or privileges under international law. Countries are therefore at liberty to deal with migrants under their own immigration laws and processes.

 

[Pete]

and Gibraltar?

The nuclear weapon defence system will be based there plus a rapid response force in case those devilish Spaniards try to steal it back or, more seriously, look like forming another armada.
It can also be developed as a giant monkey sanctuary to boost tourism.
Its close proximity to Africa makes it an ideal navigation point where refugees from Africa can be efficiently directed to Spain and Italy to avoid putting pressure on to our services.

I can't wait to announce the plans for Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel - you'll love it.

 

[Andy]

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[Atticus Finch]

While we're busy throwing extra coals on the fire, what about the Irish border question?

Alan, for me, that is the most worrying thing about the current situation. God forbid that Brexit leads to anywhere near the situation we had in the 90's, never mind the previous two decades. But the vote has now potentially opened this can of worms. And with no coherent Government in place to provide leadership, who knows what might happen?

 

[Chubbs]

What a scary monster. Rhetoric worthy of Adolf himself.

 

[Atticus Finch]

In law, the distinction between a refugee and a migrant is of great significance.

First and foremost, refugees enjoy a distinct and unique standard of protection under international law. A refugee has been defined under the 1951 Refugee Convention of the UNHCR and its 1967 Protocol as any person who, “owing to a well founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside of the country of his nationality and is unable, or is owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself the protection of that country”. With the evolution of international refugee law, this definition of convention refugees has been expanded to cover persons who have fled their countries due to armed conflicts, internal turmoil and situations involving gross and systematic violation of human rights. Such persons are typically referred to as humanitarian refugees. Refugees enjoy certain special protections under law, such as safety from deportation to the country where they face persecution; protection of basic human rights without racial or religious discrimination, or of national origin; access to fair and efficient asylum procedures; provision of administrative assistance, and so on.

On the other hand, migrants (persons who choose to leave their home state, principally in search of a better life, as opposed to escaping some form of persecution, internal strife or armed conflict) do not enjoy any protection and/or privileges under international law. Countries are therefore at liberty to deal with migrants under their own immigration laws and processes.

David - whilst I appreciate your expertise and legal definition, many 'immigrants' are also seeking to escape internal strife. It is a fine line between the two and doesn't appear to have made much difference in terms of the many thousands who have made the sometime perilous journey fro m their homeland to the seeming Nivarna that is Europe.

As many soon discover, their intended destination is far from this, but even Europe at its very worst seems to be better then where they come from.

How do we break this cycle? I've no silver bullet in this respect.

But I would suggest that cutting our Foreign Aid budget - as espoused by the quitter and coward Farage - might not be the best way to solve this thorny problem.

 

[David Brown]

For anyone interested, here is an interesting article:

Britain’s EU Problem is a London Problem

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/britains-eu-problem-london-problem

 

[Andy]

What a scary monster. Rhetoric worthy of Adolf himself.

They couldn't be more different.

Adolf - Fascist, hardcore Authoritarian. Big government.

Alex Jones - Libertarian. Lover of Freedom and free speech.

Polar opposites.

To quote Churchill - “The Fascists of the future will be the anti-fascists.”

And I'm affraid the EU is starting to follow that path. I mean they've teamed up with Social media to begin to crack down on Anti-EU postings.

The way the EU has operated over the last few years has led to so much division in Europe. It's led to the rise of far left and far right extremism right across Europe. The EU is making the world a more dangerous place. 28 sovereign European countries trading and cooperating without political union is a much safer place than what the EU is doing. The EU wants to form a superstate, this will cause civil unrest in the Mediterranean. And on a world wide scale, having an EU super-state with its own Army and Police force on Russia's door step? That's only going to end in tears.

My decision to leave had nothing to do with immigration, it had everything to do with how the EU operates, what its fast becoming, what it's done to the likes of Greece and the draconian, barbaric trading policies it forces on the struggling third world economies.

 

[Ben]

Shame then that all the main Brexit players during the referendum campaign have decided to jump ship and chicken out. Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood sums up this shambles well on Twitter ."Brexit leaders left to sort out this mess. Irresponsible, all of them."

 

[Alan M]

Got to give them some credit for being good at what they stand for - leaving.

I thought my post this morning was more worthy of you quoting than your dear leader over the border ...
Another Leaver abandoning us to the mess they've created - anyone got the courage of their convictions?

They've also abandoned us to that renowned social reformer Theresa May, though even I half-cheered when Angela Lansbury decided the world wasn't quite ready for her brand of 'mummy-knows-best' right-wing politics. The Tory party membership seemed daft enough to have wanted her, if the folk interviewed on the radio today are anything to go by - including one from not far from here who introduced herself as "I'm M. Underwood". Whoever names themselves with their initials, except on the Wimbledon winners' board???

 

[Blackie]

."Brexit leaders left to sort out this mess."

What mess is that. I'm still getting up, going to work and paying the same for my food, gas electric etc.
I passed another closed shop today, I'm sure that every small business going bust from now on will be blamed on leaving the eu, despite the fact that Northwich town centre is virtually a ghost town in places, all happening under the wonderful prosperous eu!.
Perhaps if those who want to stay had been better at their job when that had the chance so many wouldn't have voted to leave!!

 

[paul]

What I cant believe is that some peoples toys are still well out of the pram some three weeks after a fair democratic vote and its not looking likely they will be brought back in anytime time soon!! The majority of the people of this country decided to leave the EU, like it or not that is a fact. Get over it and move on!