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From the Outside Looking In….

This topic is getting overly complicated...
1. Red and green will not merge anytime soon. It just won't happen, and neither should it have to. Local rivalry is healthy in non league football.
2. 1874 and Vics cannot 'merge' as Vics do not have anything material to bring to the table. Quite the opposite they bring instability, an unaffordable groundshare agreement, a horrendous reputation, no money and a small hard-core fanbase who seemingly despise 1874 - we do not need any of this.
3. The most logical outcome is that Vics fold (the likelihood of this is probably the reason that the merger conversation is being introduced by newbies to the forum). Once Vics fold there is only one green team. Vics fans are always welcome to join, as are volunteers. Board members are welcome to put themselves forward to be voted on to the board via a democratic process. "Merger" achieved.
 
Potentially the most ridiculous thread that's ever been on here.

We voted for a sustainably ran, fan owned club, that would compete on the pitch and be well ran off it. Essentially, everything that Northwich Victoria is not. I have now supported 74 for longer than I supported Vics, and there will be many others either in my position or were not even associated to the Vics prior to 74. I see myself as a 74 fan, that once watched Northwich Victoria, and not the other way around.

Why on earth would we want to "merge" back with that brand after all the hard work we have done in the last 10 years. Let's not forget, Northwich Victoria is a club that is continually tarnished across the town, and the wider footballing world. It isn't even like it is in the past either - there have been other, very recent disgusting events and actions unfold there, where despite this, those people are still involved, which as a fan owned club, I would want absolutely nothing to do with. They just never ever learn their lesson.

As for merging with W*tton, not a chance..

I feel as though as fans, we should be working towards improving our club, and supporting the team, not living in some Northwich-based National League team fantasy land.
 
Callum74 said:
Potentially the most ridiculous thread that's ever been on here.

We voted for a sustainably ran, fan owned club, that would compete on the pitch and be well ran off it. Essentially, everything that Northwich Victoria is not. I have now supported 74 for longer than I supported Vics, and there will be many others either in my position or were not even associated to the Vics prior to 74. I see myself as a 74 fan, that once watched Northwich Victoria, and not the other way around.

Why on earth would we want to "merge" back with that brand after all the hard work we have done in the last 10 years. Let's not forget, Northwich Victoria is a club that is continually tarnished across the town, and the wider footballing world. It isn't even like it is in the past either - there have been other, very recent disgusting events and actions unfold there, where despite this, those people are still involved, which as a fan owned club, I would want absolutely nothing to do with. They just never ever learn their lesson.

As for merging with W*tton, not a chance..

I feel as though as fans, we should be working towards improving our club, and supporting the team, not living in some Northwich-based National League team fantasy land.
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You forgot the sexism, homophobia and the drug dealing. And that's before you even get onto the shady naming of creditors on the administration to look like the supporters trust.

Have people lost their minds or what?
 
Mark Riding said:
You forgot the sexism, homophobia and the drug dealing. And that's before you even get onto the shady naming of creditors on the administration to look like the supporters trust.

Have people lost their minds or what?
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You aren’t old enough Mark to recall the 1970s and 80s when the IRA and Loyalist paramilitaries killed and blew up people on a regular basis. Or when Israel and the Arab world were regularly at war with one another. And when Nelson Mandela was imprisoned in Robin Island by the vicious South African apartheid government.

The comparison between these issues and the little spats between three insignificant football clubs is, I would suggest, utterly profane.

But if McGuiness and Adams could broker peace with Paisley, De Clerk with Mandela and Sadat with Begin, then surely it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility that the Green side of Northwich could not at least have discussions about the pros and cons of joining forces?

Personally there are a number of people associated with the Vics who I would find very difficult to trust and forgive and without a doubt we’d need to ensure that they would be using us to get themselves out of the latest hole that they’ve dug themselves into.

And we’d need to insist that any merged club followed the rules, regulations and ethos of ‘74.

So no misogyny, homophobia, outside influences, dodgy money or so called “sugar daddies”.
 
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Right, I'll throw my 2 cents worth into the fray.

I'm someone that didn't go and watch Vics before '74 existed, but as they were the local side, kept a lookout on how they did, nothing more, nothing less. Even then, I knew that it wasn't exactly a well run club, always getting points deductions for going into admin, the demotion, having to play out of town and even when there were good moments on the pitch, like the Charlton game, or finishing 2nd behind a reformed Chester, there was something waiting in the corner for it to go tits up. Because of all this, to, let's face it, an uninformed local, it's not exactly a shock that when we formed and we were accepted into the NWCFL, I made the decision out of choice, to watch '74 and not Vics and unsurprisingly in the years since supporting '74, I learned a lot more about how much the Sierra was really hitting the fan at Vics, pretty much all through my lifetime, all of which lead to the supporters' trust breaking away and forming '74.

This where I struggle to understand the merger talk and those that are in favour of it, especially from those that have lived through all those years of it unfolding in front of their eyes, unlike me, who up until around 2012/13, didn't really give that much of a monkeys about it all in truth. In the years since, they've had more points deductions, another relegation, Rushe jailed, continuous question marks over how the club is run, who really runs it, where does the money come from and most recently, the homophobic incident. A few seem to be under the impression that this was all a long time ago and maybe we shouldn't hold grudges for that long and we need to work together for the future of football in Northwich. That simply isn't the case and surely there's been enough reminders in the years since '74 formed, why our club was formed and why we chose the path that we did.

While I'm at it, as well as what has happened at Vics since we formed, here's what we've done. Started a community, fan run club from scratch by fans that never had experience of running a football club before, progressed up the pyramid to a point where come the season end, we may finish the highest ranked team in town, secured a groundshare in Northwich, started and grown our youth section year on year and despite the tough last couple of years with covid with loss of income, we don't owe anyone, anything.

There's valid discussions to be had about the future of Northwich football, I get that, but why do some seem so quick to think that it should be done by all three clubs working together? That I don't get.
 
AM74 said:
This topic is getting overly complicated...
1. Red and green will not merge anytime soon. It just won't happen, and neither should it have to. Local rivalry is healthy in non league football.
2. 1874 and Vics cannot 'merge' as Vics do not have anything material to bring to the table. Quite the opposite they bring instability, an unaffordable groundshare agreement, a horrendous reputation, no money and a small hard-core fanbase who seemingly despise 1874 - we do not need any of this.
3. The most logical outcome is that Vics fold (the likelihood of this is probably the reason that the merger conversation is being introduced by newbies to the forum). Once Vics fold there is only one green team. Vics fans are always welcome to join, as are volunteers. Board members are welcome to put themselves forward to be voted on to the board via a democratic process. "Merger" achieved.
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How do you know that Vics groundshare agreement is “unaffordable”? I know a number of loyal an influential Witton fans and not one has ever mentioned that they’ve been late in paying their rent.

Yes, Vics have little in the way of cash or assets. But let’s say that their hard core of fans is circa 135. At say £8 a head that would be an additional £1k gate income per home game. Add on a likely increase in 300 club membership, 50/50, golden goals, replica kits etc you’d be talking about a significant additional income.

And then there is the Vics volunteers to consider and what theyd bring to the equation.

It’s very easy to be negative, look back on the mistakes of the past and ignore the potential benefits of doing something bold. That’s what we did when we decided to set up our great little club in 2013. Might it be time for another bold and visionary step?
 
Jack_H said:
Right, I'll throw my 2 cents worth into the fray.

I'm someone that didn't go and watch Vics before '74 existed, but as they were the local side, kept a lookout on how they did, nothing more, nothing less. Even then, I knew that it wasn't exactly a well run club, always getting points deductions for going into admin, the demotion, having to play out of town and even when there were good moments on the pitch, like the Charlton game, or finishing 2nd behind a reformed Chester, there was something waiting in the corner for it to go tits up. Because of all this, to, let's face it, an uninformed local, it's not exactly a shock that when we formed and we were accepted into the NWCFL, I made the decision out of choice, to watch '74 and not Vics and unsurprisingly in the years since supporting '74, I learned a lot more about how much the Sierra was really hitting the fan at Vics, pretty much all through my lifetime, all of which lead to the supporters' trust breaking away and forming '74.

This where I struggle to understand the merger talk and those that are in favour of it, especially from those that have lived through all those years of it unfolding in front of their eyes, unlike me, who up until around 2012/13, didn't really give that much of a monkeys about it all in truth. In the years since, they've had more points deductions, another relegation, Rushe jailed, continuous question marks over how the club is run, who really runs it, where does the money come from and most recently, the homophobic incident. A few seem to be under the impression that this was all a long time ago and maybe we shouldn't hold grudges for that long and we need to work together for the future of football in Northwich. That simply isn't the case and surely there's been enough reminders in the years since '74 formed, why our club was formed and why we chose the path that we did.

While I'm at it, as well as what has happened at Vics since we formed, here's what we've done. Started a community, fan run club from scratch by fans that never had experience of running a football club before, progressed up the pyramid to a point where come the season end, we may finish the highest ranked team in town, secured a groundshare in Northwich, started and grown our youth section year on year and despite the tough last couple of years with covid with loss of income, we don't owe anyone, anything.

There's valid discussions to be had about the future of Northwich football, I get that, but why do some seem so quick to think that it should be done by all three clubs working together? That I don't get.
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Jack - your last paragraph is completely contradictory! You say that it’s valid to have a discussion about the future of football in the town but it shouldn’t include the possibility of all three clubs working together!??
 
James Wood said:
Jack - your last paragraph is completely contradictory! You say that it’s valid to have a discussion about the future of football in the town but it shouldn’t include the possibility of all three clubs working together!??
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I didn't say that it shouldn't, just I don't understand it and I think the rest of my post outlines why I don't.
 
James Wood said:
How do you know that Vics groundshare agreement is “unaffordable”? I know a number of loyal an influential Witton fans and not one has ever mentioned that they’ve been late in paying their rent.

Yes, Vics have little in the way of cash or assets. But let’s say that their hard core of fans is circa 135. At say £8 a head that would be an additional £1k gate income per home game. Add on a likely increase in 300 club membership, 50/50, golden goals, replica kits etc you’d be talking about a significant additional income.

And then there is the Vics volunteers to consider and what theyd bring to the equation.

It’s very easy to be negative, look back on the mistakes of the past and ignore the potential benefits of doing something bold. That’s what we did when we decided to set up our great little club in 2013. Might it be time for another bold and visionary step?
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We all know how they pay for it James and its not covered by people through the gate
 
AM74 said:
We all know how they pay for it James and its not covered by people through the gate
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I think you need to be careful in asserting that NVFC isn't now being run in an open and legal manner (which is how I interpreted this comment)

Clearly I was not in the room when the discussions were taking place between the actors that eventually stayed with NVFC and formed 1874., so cannot be aware of the level of vitriol that was evident between all those involved.

That said, all the interactions I have had with those involved on all sides has shown them all to be decent honourable people who had differing views on how to solve a problem that existed at that time. Any insinuation that one side, or the other, is somehow unworthy is very unbecoming. One of our greatest attributes is our ability to forgive, but in lots of areas recently forgiveness is in very short supply. As James posts earlier, in the grand scheme of things ,this antagonism between 2 sets of supporters who in essence support a single team is so far down the list of serious issues as to be in the playground squabbles list. Your all better than that
 
James Wood said:
You aren’t old enough Mark to recall the 1970s and 80s when the IRA and Loyalist paramilitaries killed and blew up people on a regular basis. Or when Israel and the Arab world were regularly at war with one another. And when Nelson Mandela was imprisoned in Robin Island by the vicious South African apartheid government.
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That's nice, but I won't be sharing a terrace with the IRA either James.
 
Is anyone else thinking who the 1874/NVFC/Witton equivalents of Gerry Adams, Ian Paisley & Bobby Sands might be?
Or is it just me?
 
Knutsfordian said:
I think you need to be careful in asserting that NVFC isn't now being run in an open and legal manner (which is how I interpreted this comment)

Clearly I was not in the room when the discussions were taking place between the actors that eventually stayed with NVFC and formed 1874., so cannot be aware of the level of vitriol that was evident between all those involved.

That said, all the interactions I have had with those involved on all sides has shown them all to be decent honourable people who had differing views on how to solve a problem that existed at that time. Any insinuation that one side, or the other, is somehow unworthy is very unbecoming. One of our greatest attributes is our ability to forgive, but in lots of areas recently forgiveness is in very short supply. As James posts earlier, in the grand scheme of things ,this antagonism between 2 sets of supporters who in essence support a single team is so far down the list of serious issues as to be in the playground squabbles list. Your all better than that
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How is that an assertion that NVFC isn't being run in an open and legal manner? I think you're choosing very specifically how to interpret that comment.

"Who in essence support a single team" - That is a staggeringly poor comment to make.
 
Apologies if this turns out not to be the latest NLS regs, after all the FA are a law unto themselves and not always the best at updating their information.
All that said, this is what I dug out regarding the regs governing the merging of clubs:-
Going back to the merger rubbish, I’m presuming Andy that this below is the most up-to-date NLS regs?

“6.5 If two or more Clubs (“the Merging Clubs”) are proposing a transaction or series of transactions that result in the merging or consolidation (“the Proposed Merger”) of those Clubs into one Club (“the Merged Club”) then a formal application to do so must be received by the Committee and the league(s) of which the Merging Clubs are members by 31st December to be valid for the following Playing Season.
A Deed of Agreement, which shall be legally binding on all parties must be submitted to The Association by 31st March in the year immediately following receipt of the application. The Committee shall determine at its absolute discretion where the Merged Club is to be included in the NLS for the following Playing Season subject to the provisions of item 6.5.5 below.
A Deed of Agreement, which shall be legally binding on all parties must be submitted to The Association by 31st March in the year immediately following receipt of the application. The Committee shall determine at its absolute discretion where the Merged Club is to be included in the NLS for the following Playing Season subject to the provisions of item 6.5.5 below.
In arriving at its decision the Committee may apply the following minimum criteria:
6.5.1 The requirements of Standardised Rule 2.9 for the current Playing Season must be met by each of the Merging Clubs. If one or more of the Merging Clubs is subject to an insolvency event then Standardised Rule 2.9.2 shall be applied to such club(s), otherwise Standardised Rule 2.9.1 shall be applied;
6.5.2 The proposed playing name of the Merged Club must be acceptable to the Committee; and
6.5.3 The Merged Club must have security of tenure to a ground that meets the relevant ground grading requirements;
6.5.4 Any other criteria that the Committee may from time to time deem to be appropriate;
6.5.5 The Merged Club will ordinarily be placed at the lower of the Steps at which the Merging Clubs ended the Playing Season in which the application is made. For the purposes of this Regulation, if one of the Merging Clubs has finished that Playing Season in a relegation place, then they will be deemed to have ended the Playing Season at the Step to which they would have been relegated without the Proposed Merger proceeding.
Any decision regarding whether a proposed transaction or series of transactions falls to be considered under this Regulation shall be determined by the Committee at its absolute discretion”

Make of it what you will, but it does suggest we’d be potentially back at Step 5 as a merged club. Perhaps that’s the compromise that those considering a merger would’ve willing to accept. By the looks of it, 24/25 season would be the earliest it would join the NLS in its merged form.
 
So I've been following this thread for a while now and my own opinion is whilst a merger with Vics would make sense on some levels (most importantly financial) I just think that due to the animosity between the two sets of fans it's a complete non starter, the only possible way I could see a merger of any teams is unfortunately if each team folds (including witton) and no longer exists, once this happens which unfortunately won't be to far away unless something dramatic happens and we all come into millions of pounds, I can then see the prospect of forming one town team which I hope would be well supported by the local community as well as the local council in terms of assisting with ground development etc
 
Jack Owen said:
We’re 12th in the NPL. Thats nots struggling.
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Did you not attend the AGM and look at our accounts? How long do you think that we can continue to stay playing at this level when better supported and more affluent clubs are constantly joining the league?
 
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