From the Outside Looking In….

[Mark Riding]

Pot / kettle ??

Anyway, the 3 clubs are averaging about 750.
Does that sustain a club in the National League?

Yeah right. I believe 2 of those figures, but the third...

If you add Witton and Vics together - then take off that you have 2 lots of away fans in that figure. You're looking at 5-600 max.

That's not even a top 10 crowd in the league above. In addition you would lose people from the crowd in a merger.

Include that you have sides with money men pumping in silly amounts - it's just not realistic that a combined club would have a level in the National North or higher.

How long have FC United been trying to get out of that league?

 

[Knutsfordian]

How long have FC United been trying to get out of that league?

And that's the problem in a nutshell - how do you get sufficient investment in any of the teams to give any hope of progress. If you get stranded in a league without any realistic chance of promotion, then its only a matter of time before the team has a bad season and gets relegated - as WAFC have just found out. FC United are now facing the same issue.

 

[Mark Riding]

how do you get sufficient investment in any of the teams to give any hope of progress

What is progress? A league table? A bank balance? A crowd figure?

I'd argue the third is the most important as the other two come with it. I'm not convinced a merger would do anything other than add the current crowd figures together - that's not growth/progress.

 

[Tez]

What is progress? A league table? A bank balance? A crowd figure?

I'd argue the third is the most important as the other two come with it. I'm not convinced a merger would do anything other than add the current crowd figures together - that's not growth/progress.

Would a businessperson making significant investment in either any of the clubs or a unified club be seen as progress?
Surely if there was an interested party they would’ve made their presence known, if only informally, already? Just because two or three of the clubs were prepared to countenance merger, it doesn’t mean that we’d suddenly have a queue of would be suitors or significant sponsors (albeit the focus would admittedly be on one town team). For both Witton and Vics, saviours have come and gone, which is why we all find ourselves where we are currently and more pertinently why we have the existence of 1874 in the first place surely?

 

[Knutsfordian]

What is progress? A league table? A bank balance? A crowd figure?

I'd argue the third is the most important as the other two come with it. I'm not convinced a merger would do anything other than add the current crowd figures together - that's not growth/progress.

A club has to raise increasing revenues - just to meet increasing costs and stand still - so falling crowd figures really are a road to nowhere and an increasing likelihood of a downward spiral as both WAFC and NVFC have found to their cost in recent years.

keeping the clubs separate is a perfectly valid position, but it does not mean that supporters can do nothing. And in this case I put all the normal fund raising etc as part of the do nothing option - because that's being done already to get to the current (low) position. So haw do you get more revenues in the club?

In principle fan owned clubs are great - but they are doomed to fail unless they have fantastic gates or a means of garnering other revenues. Everyone will make their own choice, but time isn't on everyone's side.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Would a businessperson making significant investment in either any of the clubs or a unified club be seen as progress?
Surely if there was an interested party they would’ve made their presence known, if only informally, already? Just because two or three of the clubs were prepared to countenance merger, it doesn’t mean that we’d suddenly have a queue of would be suitors or significant sponsors (albeit the focus would admittedly be on one town team). For both Witton and Vics, saviours have come and gone, which is why we all find ourselves where we are currently and more pertinently why we have the existence of 1874 in the first place surely?

For both Vics and Witton the key is currently the structure of the football clubs, where any benefactors cannot get any sort of control over their investments

 

[James Wood]

Pot / kettle ??

Anyway, the 3 clubs are averaging about 750.
Does that sustain a club in the National League?

Yes Edge they are. But all three are playing at Step 4/5. Success attracts crowds.

And there are quite a number of National League North clubs who attract less than 750. Banbury, Alfreton, Blyth, Spennymoor, Leamington, Peterborough Sports, Brackley spring to mind. Towns with nowhere near to the footballing history of Northwich.

 

[Tez]

Perhaps Peterborough Sports is not quite the example of sustainability, with or without a “benefactor “ that we should be aspiring to ? Brackley and (possibly) Banbury likewise.

 

[James Wood]

Perhaps Peterborough Sports is not quite the example of sustainability, with or without a “benefactor “ that we should be aspiring to ? Brackley and (possibly) Banbury likewise.

When did I mention anything about benefactors / sugar daddies call them what you want. The argument was that any merged club would only attract the sum of the three existing sides.

I have absolutely no wish to go back to supporting a club that is beholden to one man’s ego and supposed riches. But it is frankly ridiculous to suggest that a merged club would not be able to reduce the collective costs of the three whilst also generating an income level greater than the trio. That’s one of the main reason why companies merge.

All speculation of course as it ain’t going to happen, irrespective of how much sense it would make

 

[James Wood]

What is progress? A league table? A bank balance? A crowd figure?

I'd argue the third is the most important as the other two come with it. I'm not convinced a merger would do anything other than add the current crowd figures together - that's not growth/progress.

Simple business economics. Two companies merge. Reduce their combined cost base by doing so whilst increasing revenues. Happens all the time. Just that sport isn’t like any other business

 

[Phil Lea]

Some very interesting posts recently and a certain degree of negativity still prevails.The well thought out musings of Knutsfordian are to be applauded but in my honest opinion wouldn't get the neccesary backing from the Witton shareholders and indeed the fans. The other proposition of the green side of town getting back together is the more feasable .As we all grow older I think a lasting legacy would be to bury the hatchet and make sure we have a sustainable team for the future.Just my thoughts as a life long green.

 

[danebanker]

Here are my thoughts!
I followed Vics for years. I was there in 56 when they won the Cheshire League, in 77 when they played Oldham at Maine Road, at Scarborough when they nearly won the Alliance League , at Oxford when Andy Preece took them off the field, at Wembley and at Stoke for the Trophy and so on, from Enderby to Merthyr Tydfil. And as Pete Grimes once said to me, he had gone to the south west for his holidays and at last realised just how far I travelled to watch the games.
But I also have seen the wonderful work done at 1874 by a great bunch of people who have gone from scratch to where we are today.
So for me, any hopes of Vics and 74 getting into one unit would have to ensure that these achievements were not compromised in any way whatsoever.
I would not include Witton in anything.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Here are my thoughts!
I followed Vics for years. I was there in 56 when they won the Cheshire League, in 77 when they played Oldham at Maine Road, at Scarborough when they nearly won the Alliance League , at Oxford when Andy Preece took them off the field, at Wembley and at Stoke for the Trophy and so on, from Enderby to Merthyr Tydfil. And as Pete Grimes once said to me, he had gone to the south west for his holidays and at last realised just how far I travelled to watch the games.
But I also have seen the wonderful work done at 1874 by a great bunch of people who have gone from scratch to where we are today.
So for me, any hopes of Vics and 74 getting into one unit would have to ensure that these achievements were not compromised in any way whatsoever.
I would not include Witton in anything.

Which is fine - there are as many Wittoners on the other side of the fence who want the opposite. Just as long as everyone realises that principles have a price and consequences. From a personal perspective the growing relationship between WAFC and NVFC just made me firstly appreciate the contribution of the NVFC peeps in getting Wincham Park into a reasonable state and secondly just how much more could be delivered by people working together instead of hiding behind old enmities - whatever the shape and structure of the outcome.

 

[come_on_the_albs]

Here are my thoughts!
I followed Vics for years. I was there in 56 when they won the Cheshire League, in 77 when they played Oldham at Maine Road, at Scarborough when they nearly won the Alliance League , at Oxford when Andy Preece took them off the field, at Wembley and at Stoke for the Trophy and so on, from Enderby to Merthyr Tydfil. And as Pete Grimes once said to me, he had gone to the south west for his holidays and at last realised just how far I travelled to watch the games.
But I also have seen the wonderful work done at 1874 by a great bunch of people who have gone from scratch to where we are today.
So for me, any hopes of Vics and 74 getting into one unit would have to ensure that these achievements were not compromised in any way whatsoever.
I would not include Witton in anything.

Ha, good luck with that

 

[NORTHWICHFC]

After all that’s happened over the years both 1874 and Vics are similar clubs now. Both sadly struggling for volunteers in an expensive environment with two teams that are doing ok. Vics may push to go up to NPL but will struggle as 1874 are doing now (sadly will find it difficult to stay at the level).

Yes from the outside 1874 have the publicised supporter run model and operation, Vics as more as a social element but we now need to combine those efforts.

How it is done, that’s for round a table with reps from both clubs but suggestion would be to use the current 1874’s official name of Northwich Community Football Club as the vessel. Approach would have to come from Vics committee to finally draw a line under Northwich Victoria and use the Northwich Community Football Club Limited as the business for us all to get behind. You have an official NORTHWICH FC name, but Vics fans can call it Trickies, 1874 fans call it 74. Compromise, accept history, close difficult chapters but we will all be Greens moving forward. A team could be more of an NPL force with combined efforts. A larger junior set up. A ground share at a much better facility, Wincham Park could be more affordable making matchdays more enjoyable and still hope for a new ground. Merging with Witton not in the conversation. Maybe in the next generation but we need now to unite the green side.

 

[Mark Riding]

After all that’s happened over the years both 1874 and Vics are similar clubs now. Both sadly struggling for volunteers in an expensive environment with two teams that are doing ok. Vics may push to go up to NPL but will struggle as 1874 are doing now (sadly will find it difficult to stay at the level).

Yes from the outside 1874 have the publicised supporter run model and operation, Vics as more as a social element but we now need to combine those efforts.

How it is done, that’s for round a table with reps from both clubs but suggestion would be to use the current 1874’s official name of Northwich Community Football Club as the vessel. Approach would have to come from Vics committee to finally draw a line under Northwich Victoria and use the Northwich Community Football Club Limited as the business for us all to get behind. You have an official NORTHWICH FC name, but Vics fans can call it Trickies, 1874 fans call it 74. Compromise, accept history, close difficult chapters but we will all be Greens moving forward. A team could be more of an NPL force with combined efforts. A larger junior set up. A ground share at a much better facility, Wincham Park could be more affordable making matchdays more enjoyable and still hope for a new ground. Merging with Witton not in the conversation. Maybe in the next generation but we need now to unite the green side.

Why on earth would we merge with them? What do Vics have that we want?

No fans, no money, no ground, toxic name. No thanks.

PS. there's ZERO chance of a members vote in favour - have you forgotten why we created this club?

 

[Graham Spencer]

If we could find a way to get both sides back together as one club, it would make a great deal of sense
"1874 Northwich Victoria" would benefit from hopefully better crowds, more volunteers and improved finances
We are all GREENS and want only the best for Northwich, surely we can put all the recent issues behind us and pull together.
All families fall out, so lets get over past and get back to where we belong
COYG !!

 

[Edge]

As far as I'm concerned NVFC are a toxic brand & I'd want nothing to do with them.

 

[Jack Owen]

No thanks. Just because Northwich Victoria are done for as a club doesn’t mean we have to take pity on them.

Merging with the club we broke away from, what would be the point of the last 10 years if we did that?

They’re still dodgy, still living outside their means, toxic name.

They don’t offer anything to us, and a large portion of 1874’s fan base is now made up of people who werent Vics fans anyway, why would they support a merged club?

 

[Jack Owen]

After all that’s happened over the years both 1874 and Vics are similar clubs now. Both sadly struggling for volunteers in an expensive environment with two teams that are doing ok. Vics may push to go up to NPL but will struggle as 1874 are doing now (sadly will find it difficult to stay at the level).

Yes from the outside 1874 have the publicised supporter run model and operation, Vics as more as a social element but we now need to combine those efforts.

How it is done, that’s for round a table with reps from both clubs but suggestion would be to use the current 1874’s official name of Northwich Community Football Club as the vessel. Approach would have to come from Vics committee to finally draw a line under Northwich Victoria and use the Northwich Community Football Club Limited as the business for us all to get behind. You have an official NORTHWICH FC name, but Vics fans can call it Trickies, 1874 fans call it 74. Compromise, accept history, close difficult chapters but we will all be Greens moving forward. A team could be more of an NPL force with combined efforts. A larger junior set up. A ground share at a much better facility, Wincham Park could be more affordable making matchdays more enjoyable and still hope for a new ground. Merging with Witton not in the conversation. Maybe in the next generation but we need now to unite the green side.

We’re 12th in the NPL. Thats nots struggling.