From the Outside Looking In….

[James Wood]

Knutsfordian - How many Witton shareholders would be willing to write off their shareholding for the greater good of unified town team and significantly those who hold the lion’s share? If not written off, what would the mechanism be for compensation?

Wincham Park would seemingly be the logical venue for any new club to play, but that would require one party to relinquish absolute control and tenure, while the other two parties offer nothing in terms of land or finance as their “buy in”? Perhaps the plan would be to rely on the largesse of the CWAC to provide an alternative venue?
Do you envisage a Board of directors made up of local and/or interested local businessmen (obviously fit and proper, with sufficient capital and patience to see the venture through while also having the best intentions for the club) or is it a fan run organisation?

Obviously many more questions to be raised, crucially first and foremost, which individual puts their head above the parapet first to start the ball rolling?
To be honest, too many hurdles and from a Witton perspective too much ground to give. They hold the cards and neither Vics or ‘74 have the money to buy in. There is no incentive for them?‍

You say Tez that Witton ‘hold the cards’. Maybe on the face of it they do. But they have done so since 2012 when Vics became homeless and we weren’t even formed.

And where have all these advantages got them? A league lower than they were 10 years ago!

Simple fact is that however they may want to dress it up, WAFC will never be the ‘town team’ because no-one (apart from the 300 hard core Albion fans) have any understanding or association with ‘Witton’. In fact I’d suggest that most residents wouldn’t even know that Witton is actually the old Parish Church of Northwich.

What Vics and or 74 would bring to the table re any merged club would be the support of both clubs which has and always will continue to eclipse that of Albion.

But if they wish to continue to plough their own furrow in the belief that their fortunes will drastically change from those they’ve experienced over the last 30 years then so be it. But my view is that history would suggest otherwise.

There’s not much that Knutsfordian and I agree on (and his support of Brexit and the Tories has been shown to have been sadly misplaced ???) but I don’t think that we’re too far apart on this one.

 

[Knutsfordian]

...... and not a Connett or Rushe character (heaven forbid) or someone with initial good intentions but ultimately not in it for the long haul. Always the risk here??‍ Something which both clubs have been on the wrong end of in the past.

Quite agree James . there would be a real need to do proper due diligence, but there is no getting away from the risks - but that said risk aversion could also cause the demise of clubs

 

[Witton man]

You say Tez that Witton ‘hold the cards’. Maybe on the face of it they do. But they have done so since 2012 when Vics became homeless and we weren’t even formed.

And where have all these advantages got them? A league lower than they were 10 years ago!

Simple fact is that however they may want to dress it up, WAFC will never be the ‘town team’ because no-one (apart from the 300 hard core Albion fans) have any understanding or association with ‘Witton’. In fact I’d suggest that most residents wouldn’t even know that Witton is actually the old Parish Church of Northwich.

What Vics and or 74 would bring to the table re any merged club would be the support of both clubs which has and always will continue to eclipse that of Albion.

But if they wish to continue to plough their own furrow in the belief that their fortunes will drastically change from those they’ve experienced over the last 30 years then so be it. But my view is that history would suggest otherwise.

There’s not much that Knutsfordian and I agree on (and his support of Brexit and the Tories has been shown to have been sadly misplaced ???) but I don’t think that we’re too far apart on this one.

Agree with most of your points here as always. However, as far as I’m aware 1874 are yet to have a higher average league gate than Albion, nor have Vics since they imploded.

Additionally, history shows that gates improve whenever Witton are doing well (no jokes please). For example, gates being the same (or higher) than Vics during the early 90s, or up to 500 at times under Vince/Pritchard. So although Witton might never be the ‘town team’, it still generates interest outside the hardcore support when it does well.

But to circle back to the original point, of course a town like Northwich shouldn’t have three teams at step 4/5, but the rivalry is deep-rooted at a much higher level. We’re not talking about an Ossett Town/Ossett Albion situation here, where both clubs have kicked around the lower reaches, we’re talking about clubs that have played most of their football in the higher echelons of non-league. It’s been a fierce, edgy rivalry - and I think that’s going to a real stumbling block for anything merger-related for a lot of people. No matter how sensible it may be from the outside!

 

[C.J.]

I think we are likely to see the green half merge first hence the discussions ? Whether Witton wil accept them as a tenant is debatable and as to a full Meger thats very unlikely because of the long held feelings, the clash of names and colours plus Who is honestly going to out up the cash required ! And talking to many Wittoners who are also shareholders they would not vote for it currently !

 

[James Wood]

I think we are likely to see the green half merge first hence the discussions ? Whether Witton wil accept them as a tenant is debatable and as to a full Meger thats very unlikely because of the long held feelings, the clash of names and colours plus Who is honestly going to out up the cash required ! And talking to many Wittoners who are also shareholders they would not vote for it currently !

I think we are likely to see the green half merge first hence the discussions ? Whether Witton wil accept them as a tenant is debatable and as to a full Meger thats very unlikely because of the long held feelings, the clash of names and colours plus Who is honestly going to out up the cash required ! And talking to many Wittoners who are also shareholders they would not vote for it currently !

Can Witton afford NOT to have tenants of whatever hue?

 

[C.J.]

If you merged, the question is would You pay the going rate for Wincham Park ? 1874 would not ! And secondly can Witton afford to encourage a potentially more potent rival or should they leave them as a less of a threat at Barnton ! At current rates We are not in profit by very much at all so why bother !

 

[Tez]

I think we are likely to see the green half merge first hence the discussions ? Whether Witton wil accept them as a tenant is debatable and as to a full Meger thats very unlikely because of the long held feelings, the clash of names and colours plus Who is honestly going to out up the cash required ! And talking to many Wittoners who are also shareholders they would not vote for it currently !

CJ, shareholders (some of them with significant holdings) would require compensation too, which to me would be the biggest sticking point of all? Who would be putting their hand in their pocket to satisfy those shareholders?
Colours, name, who represents the new club as Board/committee members, or I wonder would the plan be to have the club run by businessmen making up a Board of Directors ??‍ All these issues don’t seem to be in the detail.
Any discussion of merger between the two green factions can only be terrace chat, given the ‘74 Board do not have a mandate for formal discussion to take place. And this given the hypothesis that some member is going raise it as an item of business and a Special General Meeting is held.

No one seems to have included Barnton or Winsford as part of any grand plan. ?

 

[Knutsfordian]

Can Witton afford NOT to have tenants of whatever hue?

No I don't think so - not unless some additional income stream was forthcoming - which it hasn't to date.

I absolutely get that ground sharing, mergers, or even co-operation is difficult ground for some supporters of all hues, but that doesn't make the challenges disappear. Everyone's opinions are their own - and no one can speak for anyone else. That said the logic for doing something different is compelling but requires money, persuasion, talent and leadership to bring it to fruition. ON the question of Finance spending say £1.2m to acquire WAFC and open the door to a single club would create an entity worth far more than the initial outlay. There are people out there - hence the £4m already spent on Macc. A merged team in town would be worth at least as much at a fraction of the cost

 

[Edge]

I think you've convinced me that Witton shares are a better investment than Tesla or NFTs.

 

[Knutsfordian]

I think you've convinced me that Witton shares are a better investment than Tesla or NFTs.

Well there are folks around for whom £1m is a drop in the ocean and to be honest, its not a bad business proposition. Compared to renovating Macc its a much less risky proposition with huge potential

 

[Edge]

From the Mike Connett school of business...

If I bought the ground I'd want two teams playing there so I'd get double the rental income

 

[James Wood]

If you merged, the question is would You pay the going rate for Wincham Park ? 1874 would not ! And secondly can Witton afford to encourage a potentially more potent rival or should they leave them as a less of a threat at Barnton ! At current rates We are not in profit by very much at all so why bother !

It really all depends what “the going rate” is. And why do you not think that ‘74 would not pay such a sum? It’s long been a mystery to many of us how NVFC can afford to pay for the continued hire of WP given that their ability to raise funds from gate receipts to cover this cost appears to be somewhat limited.

 

[Knutsfordian]

From the Mike Connett school of business...

If I bought the ground I'd want two teams playing there so I'd get double the rental income

Depends whether you believe 2 teams will survive in the long term, or whether you believe in the opportunities presented by a single unified team, with the whole town to draw on for support and sponsorship, combined junior organisations, community hubs, more volunteers etc.

The overwhelming factor though would be the owners - I would be thinking more David Hewitt from Thor than Mike Connett - and that's not to rubbish Witton's current Board.

In any event the key issue here is to change what is happening to ensure the well being of football in Mid Cheshire. If that's 2 teams doing well, sharing 1 ground, I can live with that

 

[James Wood]

Depends whether you believe 2 teams will survive in the long term, or whether you believe in the opportunities presented by a single unified team, with the whole town to draw on for support and sponsorship, combined junior organisations, community hubs, more volunteers etc.

The overwhelming factor though would be the owners - I would be thinking more David Hewitt from Thor than Mike Connett - and that's not to rubbish Witton's current Board.

In any event the key issue here is to change what is happening to ensure the well being of football in Mid Cheshire. If that's 2 teams doing well, sharing 1 ground, I can live with that

I take it that you mean 1874 and Vics Knutsfordian? ??

 

[Knutsfordian]

I take it that you mean 1874 and Vics Knutsfordian? ??

That's a question for Edge - he was the one who wants 2 teams at WP. lol

 

[Edge]

That's a question for Edge - he was the one who wants 2 teams at WP. lol

I'll take the two that pay the most rent.

 

[BFC1885]

I am just checking in and have read the replies that have accumulated in the intervening period since the initial post.

Lots of very sensible replies which look beyond what is essentially fantasy, disclosing the reality of the towns footballing climate and the rivalries within.

As with everything in life, it appears it comes down to money, influence and self-perseveration. As a neutral looking in, I have absolutely no doubt that a united Northwich effort, even if just the green side of town, would be a more successful endeavour than the current entities. This would obviously only be viable however if all entities were on the same orbital plane, so to speak, with an equal desire to entertain a joint effort, which having read these replies they clearly are/have not.

Ultimately each club, despite potential overarching benefit in time, will assess the degree to which a merger would benefit them. This is sensible but arguably insular, and self-limiting.

Witton Albion, as some posters have alluded to may be the top club in Northwich for the time being, but lack the instant recognisable affiliation with Northwich that 1874 and NVFC possess. A united effort for Witton could result in much higher crowds at Wincham Park and access to a greater funding pool, but at what cost? The erosion of their entire identity? Northwich & Witton FC doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, however Northwich Albion could be a suggestion.

Another consideration as alluded to by others is the fact that deep-seated rivalries exist within the town. This whilst perhaps a limiting factor to the success of Northwich football in terms of attendance and league position, is on the flip-side a possible contributor to enhanced fan enjoyment/affiliation as a greater degree of tribalism and intrigue surrounds the Northwich football scene. The very same argument is made of Sheffield, whereby the intense rivalry between the two clubs, whilst immediately appearing counter-intuitive for support, adds to the football appetite within the City, as a continuous battle ensues for football dominance. Compare this to Leeds, a huge one club city which comparatively gets less through the gate than the Sheffield clubs.

I can only thank you for your insightful replies to this topic and wish you the best of luck for the future - whatever that may hold.

 

[Phil Lea]

I am just checking in and have read the replies that have accumulated in the intervening period since the initial post.

Lots of very sensible replies which look beyond what is essentially fantasy, disclosing the reality of the towns footballing climate and the rivalries within.

As with everything in life, it appears it comes down to money, influence and self-perseveration. As a neutral looking in, I have absolutely no doubt that a united Northwich effort, even if just the green side of town, would be a more successful endeavour than the current entities. This would obviously only be viable however if all entities were on the same orbital plane, so to speak, with an equal desire to entertain a joint effort, which having read these replies they clearly are/have not.

Ultimately each club, despite potential overarching benefit in time, will assess the degree to which a merger would benefit them. This is sensible but arguably insular, and self-limiting.

Witton Albion, as some posters have alluded to may be the top club in Northwich for the time being, but lack the instant recognisable affiliation with Northwich that 1874 and NVFC possess. A united effort for Witton could result in much higher crowds at Wincham Park and access to a greater funding pool, but at what cost? The erosion of their entire identity? Northwich & Witton FC doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, however Northwich Albion could be a suggestion.

Another consideration as alluded to by others is the fact that deep-seated rivalries exist within the town. This whilst perhaps a limiting factor to the success of Northwich football in terms of attendance and league position, is on the flip-side a possible contributor to enhanced fan enjoyment/affiliation as a greater degree of tribalism and intrigue surrounds the Northwich football scene. The very same argument is made of Sheffield, whereby the intense rivalry between the two clubs, whilst immediately appearing counter-intuitive for support, adds to the football appetite within the City, as a continuous battle ensues for football dominance. Compare this to Leeds, a huge one club city which comparatively gets less through the gate than the Sheffield clubs.

I can only thank you for your insightful replies to this topic and wish you the best of luck for the future - whatever that may hold.

 

[Charliebel]

As previously stated I've been a Wittoner all my life as has all my Dad's side.
If the clubs were to merge I would walk away as a Witton Albion fan and never return. The feeling is that strong. I'm sure I'm not only in these thoughts

 

[Knutsfordian]

As previously stated I've been a Wittoner all my life as has all my Dad's side.
If the clubs were to merge I would walk away as a Witton Albion fan and never return. The feeling is that strong. I'm sure I'm not only in these thoughts

And therein lies the dilemma - if you believe that at some point the club will fail anyway - which ever path you walk the team you love goes. Just a question of when. At least by being brave and looking to secure local football in some shape or form, there will be a club for other Charliebels to watch. Again I would emphasise that whatever part of town you come from or support, it's a hugely personal, not always logical decision and that each individual is entitled their own opinion