Wittons future

[Tony Fallows]

There is an interesting discussion about Wittons future on their website and how they cannot survive without Jim's club and their financial input particularly as it is now run as a "Community Club" like ours. Yeah right!

 

[toddyb]

I don't usual comment about post's on other forums,but the post of Matt Cattie amused me according to him,1874 are irrelevant this comment comes after he drove a bus for Vic's and got free entry to their home game.Is that the same Matt Cattie who drove our bus in the Vase and made glowing remarks about 1874 (two faced our what?).He also say's 1874 are in decline,Matt stick at what you do very well, driving bus's,you know absolutely nothing about the affairs of 1874.

 

[Knutsfordian]

In a rare moment of madness, I agree with Toddy's last comment that Matt knows nothing about the affairs of 1874 - and to be fair to Matt he would probably agree with that too.

I suspect the point that Matt was trying to make is that given the upturn in NVFC's fortunes, NVFC genuinely does seem to be re-establishing itself and their supporters are returning to the fold. If this progress continues, the reasons for the establishment of 1874 may carry a little less gloss and make it harder for 1874 to thrive.

Is it therefore beyond the bounds of comprehension that old friends and recent adversaries can be re-united?

 

[toddyb]

Knutsfordian your comment that their supporters are returning to the fold was not evident in last night gate of 151 on a very pleasant evening after good win on Saturday.

 

[Knutsfordian]

I would say that's steady progress. At times they have struggled for that sort of gate on a good Saturday. I don't follow the stats enough to be able to demonstrate actual numbers, but my gut feeling is that NVFC gates are rising.

Interesting though that you chose to focus on a minor issue like gates, when the key question remained unanswered.

 

[Tez]

I would say that's steady progress. At times they have struggled for that sort of gate on a good Saturday. I don't follow the stats enough to be able to demonstrate actual numbers, but my gut feeling is that NVFC gates are rising.

Interesting though that you chose to focus on a minor issue like gates, when the key question remained unanswered.

I’ll help you out Knutsfordian, the answer is a resounding “no”. No reunification. Vics have nothing, absolutely nothing to offer us, in my humble opinion.
Hope that clears things up?

 

[Tony Fallows]

I would agree with Tez because I think that the time has past to talk about any kind of reunification and that 1874 Northwich has built up its own identity, culture, ethos, and personality and is a distinctly separate club from Barnton, Witton, Vics, Lostock and any other local team and it is a manifestation of its own owners and supporters.

On a practical level Vics have nothing to offer 1874 that is any tangible benefit.

 

[Blackie]

In a rare moment of madness, I agree with Toddy's last comment that Matt knows nothing about the affairs of 1874 - and to be fair to Matt he would probably agree with that too.

I suspect the point that Matt was trying to make is that given the upturn in NVFC's fortunes, NVFC genuinely does seem to be re-establishing itself and their supporters are returning to the fold. If this progress continues, the reasons for the establishment of 1874 may carry a little less gloss and make it harder for 1874 to thrive.

Is it therefore beyond the bounds of comprehension that old friends and recent adversaries can be re-united?

Vics attendance for their QF was 719, 1874 pulled in 1109 last season for same round.
We had just shy of 1700 for the SF. Doubt if Vics will match that.

Despite this figure in the cup we are pulling 267 avg for league games. What this proves is how fickle fans are. Most will come watch the glory hunting games but it takes much more to lure them regularly
I know 4 where i work who didn't bother last year when Vics were doing shite who are now attending. (the "big games" anyway!)
Its obvious they are paying well above what they are pulling in money wise and pretty sure they will all scurry back into the woodwork just as quickly when it all goes tits up again.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Vics on the up!?...shall we wait and see!! and as for returning, the league match v Didsbury last night was attended by just 151....allegedly!

BTW, id hardly call gates a "minor" issue!? It what pays the bills and the "lack of" people through the wi**on gates that causes you the need to take Vics money to survive. And please don't say you don't need the money, you obviously do to let them back in after what happened last time!

 

[Tony Fallows]

I saw a coach in Northwich recently that had a sign in the window saying "Everton Supporters Club (Northwich Branch)" which was taking people from Northwich to Liverpool to watch the game and that is the problem as a lot of new residents of the town don't have the traditional allegiances as they were not born here and they need to be brought into the light.

 

[Tez]

A problem which manifestly affects all Mid-Cheshire clubs these days it’s fair to say Tony.

 

[Alan M]

I would say that's steady progress. At times they have struggled for that sort of gate on a good Saturday. I don't follow the stats enough to be able to demonstrate actual numbers, but my gut feeling is that NVFC gates are rising.

Interesting though that you chose to focus on a minor issue like gates, when the key question remained unanswered.

Attendances are hardly a minor issue when they are the life blood of a club's finances at this level, particularly any club which is fan-owned and not reliant on any external backer with deep pockets (and probably more money than sense if they are investing in a NL club). That applies to us, and (so they say) also to NVFC. And given the frequent debates about dwindling gates on the WA forum it is clearly a major issue there too.

As for the 'steady progress' with your tenants' attendances, I wouldn't necessarily believe the magic bingo numbers drawn from a hat, just as I would take with a pinch of salt the constant tweets about seeing old fans return (especially those from the manager, who wouldn't recognise an 'old fan' if he waved a hooped shirt in his face). Take some other circumstantial evidence - an attendance of 151 with 43 cars in the car park midweek suggests they must all be environmentally-conscious car-sharers or walkers (or live in Wincham), they have little social media presence, they generate little traffic to their tweets or to local news reports. But compared with attendances in Stafford or Flixton you are right, their gates have risen - just not to the point where they are conceivably sustainable in the mid to long term (which must be a worry to WA given the dependence on their groundshare rental).

As for your "key question" ... a simple straightforward 'no'.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Question of perspectives I suppose. I always assumed that 1874 weren't bothered about Vics gates and therefore they would be a minor issue for 1874. Clearly they are more important for 1874 than for Vics.

That said, I appreciate that 1874 have struck out on a path as fan owned club and trying to ensure that they always do the right thing. It does seem though that a trick is being missed if there is no attempt to reconcile what is in effect 2 teams with the same heritage. If that's impossible, I think football in Mid Cheshire has a bleak future.

I have grave doubts whether the proposed development at Rudheath (?) will support local non league football or draw valuable resources away from our clubs. Something may yet have to give to ensure we have sustainable football to watch.

 

[toddyb]

Lets get back to the title of this thread(which you Knutsfordian have manage to divert}Wittons future,In most case's it's the tenant's who are dependent on the landlords but it seem's not so at Witton it's the other way round.Maybe If Witton realised they can no longer afford to play at the level they are at the moment they would be able to balance the books.The Dog and Duck league would be about right.

 

[Knutsfordian]

But I suspect that people don't want to watch football in the dog and duck league ad infinitum without any reasonable means of escape. That's the downward spiral that Mid Cheshire football is headed for and where it seems you are content to be. That path can only lead to continual decline and eventual loss of clubs. It's why fans only turn out for big games and then get on a coach to watch a host of local premier league teams the rest of the time. I think the debate on the WAFC forum has evolved into how to break that cycle. Doing the right thing may not necessarily lead to making the best decisions - and before anyone jumps in says about drug money or other dodgy deals, that's not what I mean !! As an example FC United have hit a wall, while Salford City are going from strength to strength. When the chips are down, do fans want "doing the right thing" or success? I suspect its the latter. I think its time to do something different in MId Cheshire - and that's not necessarily building a replica of St George's Park.

 

[Frank Fallows]

Are we really interested in other clubs affairs, what I know and care about is the surefire upward path of 1874, I have no interest whatsoever in another clubs situation.

 

[Knutsfordian]

but are you so confident about "the surefire upward path of 1874", that you can afford to ignore the lessons being learned by other clubs ? At your peril I would say !

 

[Frank Fallows]

I do know the "open and transparent" situation of 74 whilst other clubs are shrouded in the mists of what may be.
Knutsfordian go and concentrate on the situation that affects other clubs !!.
????????

 

[Knutsfordian]

Twas 1874 that opened the discussion on this forum !

 

[toddyb]

Well Knutsfordian what do you think the answer for Witton is or do you think all is lost?.

 

[Tez]

Question of perspectives I suppose. I always assumed that 1874 weren't bothered about Vics gates and therefore they would be a minor issue for 1874. Clearly they are more important for 1874 than for Vics.

That said, I appreciate that 1874 have struck out on a path as fan owned club and trying to ensure that they always do the right thing. It does seem though that a trick is being missed if there is no attempt to reconcile what is in effect 2 teams with the same heritage. If that's impossible, I think football in Mid Cheshire has a bleak future.

I have grave doubts whether the proposed development at Rudheath (?) will support local non league football or draw valuable resources away from our clubs. Something may yet have to give to ensure we have sustainable football to watch.

No trick has been missed. There is nothing to reconcile. Both clubs chose the direction they wished to go. Granted this in all probability doesn’t guarantee that either respective club will necessarily be content with outcome ultimately, but i’m sure I am not alone in wanting to take that risk and follow the path we’ve chosen. In that respect only time will tell.

As to the replication of St George’s, presumably a snide dig (as a poster I thought you were above all that?) at the planned development by the CFA? Be honest if you were in 1874’s shoes, would you pass up on the potential opportunity?

Regarding football in Mid-Cheshire having a bleak future? Certainly I think all the local clubs perhaps need to wake up to the reality that their ambitions, windows of opportunity (call it what you will) need to be scaled down somewhat in order survive. I doubt that either Witton or Vics will ever achieve the dizzy heights of Conference football again, let alone those pipe dreams of the 80’s and 90’s of Football League membership, unless of course significant funding was risked; both Vics and Witton have been down that road before, with the predictable unfortunate outcome. The standard of football the locality can afford to offer is probably NPL at best, whereas the standard expected by its potential paying public or least the notional untapped future fans, is probably a good deal higher; therein lies the problem. The future can be either bleak or just realistic, it all depends on how you look at the broader picture. And I’d say that comment applies to of all three clubs discussed in the thread.