From the Outside Looking In….

[James Wood]

I think you need to be careful in asserting that NVFC isn't now being run in an open and legal manner (which is how I interpreted this comment)

Clearly I was not in the room when the discussions were taking place between the actors that eventually stayed with NVFC and formed 1874., so cannot be aware of the level of vitriol that was evident between all those involved.

That said, all the interactions I have had with those involved on all sides has shown them all to be decent honourable people who had differing views on how to solve a problem that existed at that time. Any insinuation that one side, or the other, is somehow unworthy is very unbecoming. One of our greatest attributes is our ability to forgive, but in lots of areas recently forgiveness is in very short supply. As James posts earlier, in the grand scheme of things ,this antagonism between 2 sets of supporters who in essence support a single team is so far down the list of serious issues as to be in the playground squabbles list. Your all better than that

Christ Knutsfordian!

Stop agreeing with me now as you are beginning to worry me.

Next you’ll be saying that Brexit has been a disaster and you’ll be voting Labour at the next GE!

 

[Tony]

Is anyone else thinking who the 1874/NVFC/Witton equivalents of Gerry Adams, Ian Paisley & Bobby Sands might be?
Or is it just me?

I have three obvious nominations but will not be sharing them. ?

 

[Tony]

A merger with Vics is going backwards not forwards.

I'm just a little astonished with James's recent change of heart, although it may not be recent. I can't help but wonder if he's seen the future and can only see red in our town. ?

I'll throw a grenade into the discussion with a suggestion that the only possible way that an amalgamation might be successful is to merge ALL Mid Cheshire clubs. ?

 

[Knutsfordian]

Christ Knutsfordian!

Stop agreeing with me now as you are beginning to worry me.

Next you’ll be saying that Brexit has been a disaster and you’ll be voting Labour at the next GE!

Now then James don't push your luck lol !!!

 

[Knutsfordian]

How is that an assertion that NVFC isn't being run in an open and legal manner? I think you're choosing very specifically how to interpret that comment.

"Who in essence support a single team" - That is a staggeringly poor comment to make.

If I interpreted the comment that way, then I am sure others would too. If NVFC are topping up their gate receipts with fund raising that is no different than any other club and therefore not deserving of that comment.

Whilst there are two versions of the club currently playing football, in essence all the supporters who watch those games ascribe to the achievements of the past, glory in the achievements, feel pain at the disappointments and cherish all those who made these things possible. In my view that is in essence supporting a single team.

 

[Edge]

Whilst there are two versions of the club currently playing football, in essence all the supporters who watch those games ascribe to the achievements of the past,

I don't believe that there are 2 versions of the club. There are 2 clubs in green and they are significantly different clubs.
And not all 1874 fans have links back to NVFC.

 

[Tez]

I don't believe that there are 2 versions of the club. There are 2 clubs in green and they are significantly different clubs.
And not all 1874 fans have links back to NVFC.

and I for one don’t feel Vics successes or disappointment and I’d be fairly confident they wouldn’t share ours.

 

[Knutsfordian]

and I for one don’t feel Vics successes or disappointment and I’d be fairly confident they wouldn’t share ours.

Agreed there may be some (a few?) new fans with no association to NVFC, but essentially most do have an association and do ascribe to the past glories etc. I think your splitting hairs to create an illusion of something different, whilst in reality there is none, or very very little. The problem that caused the split between the clubs has gone away, but for some reason, for some supporters, there remains a cussed refusal to accept the new reality and thereby justify maintaining the division between the groups of supporters. As one club, (although it hurts to say it) you had some really fine achievements - and you could do again.

And whilst the doubters would say "we can do that as 74" , the reality of life in senior non league says differently. I have no knowledge of 74's accounts (and don't wish to) but a tightening of finances has been alluded to elsewhere in this thread. Those are the realities of running a football club. All the experience and talent that 1874 have amassed over the past few years could definitely achieve greater things if released from the current shackles. Opportunities rarely present themselves and almost never when you want them to. As I have said elsewhere, time may not always be on your side either.

 

[Tez]

Agreed there may be some (a few?) new fans with no association to NVFC, but essentially most do have an association and do ascribe to the past glories etc. I think your splitting hairs to create an illusion of something different, whilst in reality there is none, or very very little. The problem that caused the split between the clubs has gone away, but for some reason, for some supporters, there remains a cussed refusal to accept the new reality and thereby justify maintaining the division between the groups of supporters. As one club, (although it hurts to say it) you had some really fine achievements - and you could do again.

And whilst the doubters would say "we can do that as 74" , the reality of life in senior non league says differently. I have no knowledge of 74's accounts (and don't wish to) but a tightening of finances has been alluded to elsewhere in this thread. Those are the realities of running a football club. All the experience and talent that 1874 have amassed over the past few years could definitely achieve greater things if released from the current shackles. Opportunities rarely present themselves and almost never when you want them to. As I have said elsewhere, time may not always be on your side either.

Knutsfordian you began the thread ascribing to a merger between all three clubs, now you seem to be fixated with solely the green half? Why you worry about is so much is touching, but surely a town free of either or both green clubs can only be a positive for Witton? All the sponsors to yourself, all the local businessmen queuing up outside the one Boardroom, all the new fans to the area, plus picking up the odd fan here and there from the debris of ‘74 and Vics. Surely the perfect solution and all without the compromise, hassle and argument of a merger? There’s something to ponder.

With regard to splitting hairs, I don’t think any of what I wrote was anything of the sort. I think you were confusing the content of my post with a previous one.?

 

[Knutsfordian]

Knutsfordian you began the thread ascribing to a merger between all three clubs, now you seem to be fixated with solely the green half? Why you worry about is so much is touching, but surely a town free of either or both green clubs can only be a positive for Witton? All the sponsors to yourself, all the local businessmen queuing up outside the one Boardroom, all the new fans to the area, plus picking up the odd fan here and there from the debris of ‘74 and Vics. Surely the perfect solution and all without the compromise, hassle and argument of a merger? There’s something to ponder.

With regard to splitting hairs, I don’t think any of what I wrote was anything of the sort. I think you were confusing the content of my post with a previous one.?

The merger between 1874 and NVFC was and always will be a start point for any future amalgamation of clubs. Whether it goes beyond that is a supporters decision.


With regards to splitting hairs, I absolutely stand by that statement but my comment was aimed at 1874 fans generally rather than you personally, if that make sense. I any event what I am trying to say is the gap between supporters is not as great as some would believe it to be

 

[James Wood]

Knutsfordian you began the thread ascribing to a merger between all three clubs, now you seem to be fixated with solely the green half? Why you worry about is so much is touching, but surely a town free of either or both green clubs can only be a positive for Witton? All the sponsors to yourself, all the local businessmen queuing up outside the one Boardroom, all the new fans to the area, plus picking up the odd fan here and there from the debris of ‘74 and Vics. Surely the perfect solution and all without the compromise, hassle and argument of a merger? There’s something to ponder.

With regard to splitting hairs, I don’t think any of what I wrote was anything of the sort. I think you were confusing the content of my post with a previous one.?

Tez - effectively Witton were the only show in town from 2012 as we didn’t exist and Vics were in freefall.

And what advantage did they make of this situation? Bugger all is the answer. As I’ve said before in this forum and to many a wittoner, their club has gone backwards since 2012 whilst we have made huge strides forward. And whilst they do undoubtedly have a major asset in WP, for a number of reasons they can’t afford to sell up and relocate. It’s clear that they rely on the income they get from Vics to keep their heads above the water but even this hasn’t prevented them from sinking back into Step 4.

Knutsfordian says that us ‘74 fans must be cussed not to even consider opening a dialogue with Vics. It would be interesting to know what his view is about his fellow Albion fans who seem wholly intransigent when it comes to considering the possible benefits that one team representing the town might have, both to all three sets of fans and the continuation of as high a standard of football in the town as possible?

 

[Charliebel]

Observed this thread for a number of days now. The underlying thought for me is on the differences on how far we are away from a unified Northwich team.
As a Wittoner of nearly 50 years I'm more than happy , im proud of the history of my club and will do anything possible to keep Witton Albion moving forward independently.

 

[James Wood]

The merger between 1874 and NVFC was and always will be a start point for any future amalgamation of clubs. Whether it goes beyond that is a supporters decision.


With regards to splitting hairs, I absolutely stand by that statement but my comment was aimed at 1874 fans generally rather than you personally, if that make sense. I any event what I am trying to say is the gap between supporters is not as great as some would believe it to be

Knutsfordian - I think that you are both right and wrong. There are fans in both green camps who still possess a great deal of emnity and dislike for one another. There are others who, like me, are still distrustful but, as you say, recognise that things have changed since 2012 and maybe after a decade it’s time to at least talk to one another again about what we have in common rather than what might divide us. And this comes from a person who loathed Rushe and could simply not understand why some fans continued to support him despite the constant lies he peddled.

And there are also some who would like to see the two clubs join back together.

I get the feeling though that there are more fans in the 74 camp who might be prepared to countenance this than Vics fans.

But be in no doubt. Even though I may support both clubs having some level of dialogue, I and I suspect the majority of 74 fans would only agree to a merger of the new club were to operate c within the rules, ethos and principles of 1874. To do otherwise would be tantamount to throwing away all the hard work, effort, and amazing successes we’ve collectively achieved over the past 10 years

 

[James Wood]

Observed this thread for a number of days now. The underlying thought for me is on the differences on how far we are away from a unified Northwich team.
As a Wittoner of nearly 50 years I'm more than happy , im proud of the history of my club and will do anything possible to keep Witton Albion moving forward independently.

And we all respect you for your loyalty to your club and your view.

But as a Wittoner of some 50 years standing, might i ask you where you think that your club will be in 10, 20 or 30 years time?

The reason I ask is that despite your very well run and burgeoning junior set up, whenever I go to a game at WP the audience is predominately and increasingly elderly.

The same is true at 74 and, I suspect, Vics too.

So why might bathos be so?

Well I suspect that there are many reasons and neither is there likely to be a single ‘Silver Bullet’ that might solve this dilemma.

But maybe by pooling our resources, making WP the hub of football in the town (a 4G pitch would be an imperative), getting all our existing, separate backers / advertisers / sponsors to back ONE club we’d have a chance of creating a lasting legacy for the town and maybe even compete at a level that a town like Northwich with its long an rich football history ought to be playing at?

Or would you rather see your club continue in the slow and steady decline it’s experienced over the last 25+ years?

 

[Knutsfordian]

Knutsfordian says that us ‘74 fans must be cussed not to even consider opening a dialogue with Vics. It would be interesting to know what his view is about his fellow Albion fans who seem wholly intransigent when it comes to considering the possible benefits that one team representing the town might have, both to all three sets of fans and the continuation of as high a standard of football in the town as possible?

Oh have no doubt James that many WAFC supporters would find a changes/merger difficult to countenance, but the debate needs to be had. At the moment we (WAFC) have a popular board and management team, a good vibe around the ground and the basis for some sort of resurgence, but whether this is sustainable is the key question. History tells us that without some additional support, and releasing the Board from the financial shackles imposed by the share holding structure, that this is unlikely. Over the past 30 years we have spent a lot of money to effectively fall 4 levels. So whilst I hope that fortunes rise and we are heading for a period of success, the logical part of my brain surveys the landscape and indicates that this is akin to winning the lottery. So what do we do? Bear in mind my definition of doing nothing includes all the day to day fundraising already in place as we have used all this funding to effectively get relegated to where we are now. So we have to have the debate about how we move forward to do something differently to ensure a team plays non league football at a high a level as possible. It's uncomfortable and unpopular, but we need that debate. Its exactly the same debate that's taking place in the green half of the town. If each of those groups of supporters can find a way to have the debate, then some good must come of it. At least supporters will then understand what they are doing has consequences. Its no use then complaining and chanting "sack the board" if the risks of doing nothing materialise. When supporters have travelled the length and breadth of the country, tipped up hard earned money, felt the pain of failure and then gone again, its hardly surprising feelings run deep but we need to think long and hard to se if there is a path we can all walk that gives us a better chance of some success.

 

[Alan M]

First game mid 60s, plenty of fond memories, but also plenty of unpleasant ones, usually off-field. I for one could not countenance any amalgamation with NV which did not respect the 74 set-up in all its facets. Otherwise what has been the point of the past 10 years?

While sorting through stuff on my laptop this morning to transfer to a new one I came across the attached image of programme notes by Mike Talbot-Butler in January 1974. Plus ça change …

 

[Tez]

First game mid 60s, plenty of fond memories, but also plenty of unpleasant ones, usually off-field. I for one could not countenance any amalgamation with NV which did not respect the 74 set-up in all its facets. Otherwise what has been the point of the past 10 years?

While sorting through stuff on my laptop this morning to transfer to a new one I came across the attached image of programme notes by Mike Talbot-Butler in January 1974. Plus ça change …

Spot on Alan, excellent points. It would need to be a clean slate with Vics acknowledging our reasoning behind our original decision and respecting it without rancour or grudge. For balance ‘74 would also need to draw their own line under past disagreements too of course. Neither fan movement in that respect would come easy, if at all and I don’t see it being a smooth straightforward transition in those terms.?‍
Whether the merger involved two or three clubs, the crucial aspect which would be imperative if it were to succeed would be an end to all the smoke and mirrors. All three to make available properly audited accounts along with detailed minutes of all individual club meetings by each respective Board which have taken place. That way we’d all be confident we had been, and were prepared to in future, go about business respectfully and truthfully.
All that said, my opinion on merger remains the same.

 

[Charliebel]

With all due respect to 74 and Vics , what would they bring to the table.
It would have to be a substantial capital input to even come close to being on a level playing field with Witton.
Not that I'd even consider following a new club.

 

[Tez]

With all due respect to 74 and Vics , what would they bring to the table.
It would have to be a substantial capital input to even come close to being on a level playing field with Witton.
Not that I'd even consider following a new club.

I think the suggestion when I posed that same question regarding satisfying shareholders, amongst other things, was that possibly an investor would suitably recompense?‍ If I’ve misinterpreted that original response, I too would be interested in the answer you get Charlibel.

 

[Knutsfordian]

There's an (lets call it) undertone that WAFC and NVFC (1874 and or Vics) would somehow have to meet as equals for there to be any possible merger/unification. That's not true. If all companies had to be the same size to merge, there would be very few mergers. The key obstacle to any such move is that WAFC is a Limited company owned by shareholders, not all of whom are supporters. Some of those shareholders could be key decision makers and its the shareholders who will make the decision, not necessarily the supporters on the terraces.