Theresa May says 95% of Brexit deal is done

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Knutsfordian

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Toddy's post seems to have disappeared - but the gist was why are brexiteers frightened of a new referendum

I don't think they are ! It s just there's bigger questions - like why the democracy deniers won't accept the original decision? Why don't they have the referendum on the question that we should rejoin the EU? Why are the Remainers frightened of a General Election.? Another rerun of the last referendum will be even more divisive. there's no gain and yet more pain. Will the 2nd result be accepted? Well it will be written into law that it will be, except if the Remainers lose, in which case the Libdems wont accept it anyway lol :)
 

Knutsfordian

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You can’t split one of the options, makes no sense. Remain would win by default. If you two Remain options and one Leave option, Leave would win by default. You can have three question but they all should be for how we want to leave.
And yes I accept the point that it depends how you frame the question BUT most remainers want a 3 way vote - Remain/Leave with deal/Leave with NO Deal. I agre with kit. The decision to leave has been made it should just be deal or no deal on the ballot paper. Suddenly the Remainers will no longer be in favour of a referendum. Its not about getting the answer, its about blocking Brexit, full stop.
 

Ben

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Ben, exactly this. This is what the EU does. If it doesn’t get the result it wants it repeats the referendum until it is satisfied. There are many examples, here are a few....
1992 Maastricht Treaty - Denmark voted no. Repeated with extra ‘promises’
2004 Constitution of Europe - France and Netherlands voted no. All other referendums in other countries suddenly cancelled.
2007 Lisbon treaty - Ireland voted no. Repeated with extra ‘promises’.

ComRes yesterday -
42% support no-deal compared to 32% wanting an extension.
The vast majority would blame Parliament, Remain MPs, the EU before Johnson.
So 58 per cent (the majority) don't support no-deal?

On that basis, how can we go ahead with the no-deal that Johnson and the Brexit fanatics so desperately crave?
 

Knutsfordian

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So lets rewrite the rules of democracy !!

In our democracy the vote is won by the majority of people exercising their vote - not the number of people who didn't vote for something or who could have voted but didn't!

In any election in this country the vote is won by an overall minority of people who voted - in simple terms the number of people who vote FOR a motion is usually carried by less than 50% of the total vote exercised.

So by saying that 70% of people are against Brexit (by adding up those who are not explicitly for Brexit) is a misrepresentation. Its all nonsense. Get the GE underway
 
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Kit

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So 58 per cent (the majority) don't support no-deal?

On that basis, how can we go ahead with the no-deal that Johnson and the Brexit fanatics so desperately crave?
This (and Phil’s similar point) is absolutely ridiculous. This is how democracy works. You go with the majority VOTE. You can’t say, well no actually that party shouldn’t be in government because 60% of the country didn’t vote for them. You count the majority vote. Bonkers. Out of the options given in the poll, leave on 31st was the majority. That’s how these things work!
 

Kit

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They were individual country referendums. Extra 'promises' as you put it were negotiated concessions.

I haven't seen the poll you refer to, but if it's true how do you take 42% to be any sort of majority. I read it as the majority don't want no deal.
Yes Phil, and they have kept repeating their referendums until they got the result they wanted. Yes, individual countries that are part of the EU, you can’t have it both ways. “Oh...you didn’t really know what you were voting for. Let us make it clearer”
 

Kit

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The country has always polled against Brexit. Toddy asked why leavers are scared of another referendum. I believe we would get absolutely the same result. I’m scared that it would be the death of democracy.
 

Phil Bradley

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Kit, I've no idea what point you are struggling to make or what the source is of the heavily biased comments. These were referendums in individual countries, nobody but there own government forced them to do anything.
 

toddyb

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If you wish to defend democracy why did you not protest when Boris tried to gag parliament ?,and then lied to the so called head of state.
 

toddyb

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What really pi---es me off is commentator's and politicians treat this as a game.this is the future of our children and grandchildren.I think the only way to decide this is a referendum In or out,after all the clap trap lies and posing of these lying so called politicians it should be left to the people.Some people are making a lot of money out of this and we are footing the bill.
 
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Alan M

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1) a GE will not solve brexit, a GE is not designed to address a single issue it is there to elect a govt for 5 years on a range of policies, and no party can present viable policies until they know the outcome of brexit. A single issue which is deadlocked can only be solved by a single issue vote - they haven't tried linking support for the Finance Bill or proposed laws on gaming machines to brexit legislation in the Commons, so why attempt to link it to every other item of domestic and international policy in a GE?
2) research those previous referendums - after the first vote there were renegotiations and the amended proposals put to the people - so a different question; just as a new UK referendum would be a different question, putting a known quantity on both sides of the argument, rather than a known quantity versus an abstract.
3) democracy was not frozen in time in June 2016; people are allowed in a democracy to continue to support the losing side's position, and people are allowed in a democracy to change their mind

And all of that has been pointed out before on this thread
 
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Kit

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Kit, I've no idea what point you are struggling to make or what the source is of the heavily biased comments. These were referendums in individual countries, nobody but there own government forced them to do anything.
And I think your slightly naive if you honestly think the EU just stand back and have no input.
 

Kit

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And I think your slightly naive if you honestly think the EU just stand back and have no input.
What really pi---es me off is commentator's and politicians treat this as a game.this is the future of our children and grandchildren.I think the only way to decide this is a referendum In or out,after all the clap trap lies and posing of these lying so called politicians it should be left to the people.Some people are making a lot of money out of this and we are footing the bill.
Absolutely Toddy, we’ve got the most talentless, posturing and feeble Parliament ever. It should have been sorted out a long time ago, we should be out with the result honoured. It’s dragged on and on which is why Remainers can now say, but that vote was 3 years ago.
By the way, I totally respect the Remainers view. But we held a referendum with everyone lining up to say the vote was binding, if you vote out we’ll be out. That HAS to happen in a democratic country. By all means campaign for another referendum in 5 years time to take us back in. Alan Says democracy is not frozen, I didn’t vote to be part of the EU, wasn’t that in 1973? What percentage of the country still alive voted then?
 

Phil Bradley

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Absolutely Toddy, we’ve got the most talentless, posturing and feeble Parliament ever. It should have been sorted out a long time ago, we should be out with the result honoured. It’s dragged on and on which is why Remainers can now say, but that vote was 3 years ago.
By the way, I totally respect the Remainers view. But we held a referendum with everyone lining up to say the vote was binding, if you vote out we’ll be out. That HAS to happen in a democratic country. By all means campaign for another referendum in 5 years time to take us back in. Alan Says democracy is not frozen, I didn’t vote to be part of the EU, wasn’t that in 1973? What percentage of the country still alive voted then?
Nobody voted in 2016 for the prospect of a no deal, that wasn't what was sold. Opinion has shifted, the demographic has changed, democracy needs to respect what has evolved.
 

Phil Bradley

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Nobody voted in 2016 for the prospect of a no deal, that wasn't what was sold. Opinion has shifted, the demographic has changed, democracy needs to respect what has evolved.
The YouGov analysis of 300 surveys shows concrete evidence that the country has shifted against leaving the EU since 2016. That is the 'will of the people' now.
 
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