Theresa May says 95% of Brexit deal is done

  • Hello Guest, You'll need to login or signup to be able to post on here.

James Wood

I Live Here
Jun 1, 2017
804
386
73
I think that part of the ‘compelling’ reason is currently being played out in NI. Plenty of people- including William Hague and John Major- warned against the impact that Brexit would have on the Good Friday agreement.

And you say that it was ‘never going to be easy’. Well, that’s not what the likes of Gove, Fox, Davis et al were saying during and post the Brexit campaign - or are you suffering from a hint of rose-tinted amnesia?
‘Never going to be easy’?

I give you the then Trade Secretary Liam Fox telling us how ‘easy’ striking major trade deals would be if we left the EU.

This has aged as well as a rough bottle on vin-de-plonk!

 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
1,636
890
123
65
I think as a brexiteer we voted for out of the single market, out of the customs union, not paying in to the EU, out of EU legislation, out of EU institutions, out of CAP out of CFP. Theresa may's deal does all that. Any softening from that i.e the Norway option and you may as well stay in the EU. However the party that takes us there will be forever known as the deniers of democracy.

The impact on the economy was seen as a risk worth taking. The EU has not delivered unmitigated financial success, with some severe recessions during our EU tenure. They can't be blamed for all the issues, nor can they claim the glory for economic success. These ups and downs will happen despite EU membership not as a consequence of it.

The current debate around Europe is seen as a mess of the Conservatives making - not true. Its a consequence of denying people a say on our relationship with Europe for so many years. I seem to remember Blair saying he would allow a referendum - but then never allowing it !!

The EU continues to evolve and change. If we stay it won't be a static grouping and we won't like everything they want to do to forge closer union, so its only postponing the fight to another occasion which will surely happen as night follows day.
This was something I posted way back when on page 3 of this thread !! In my mind it was always clear we would be out of the customs union, because staying in effectively tied us to the EU in perpetuity.

The bottom line is whether you believe that, given goods have passed across the Irish border without interference since the GFA, despite differing currencies and tax regimes and despite the fact that the total value of the Irish trade equates to about £20 billion per month (and a large part of that going to the UK), was a border of any sort really necessary? The amount of any illegal trade was hardly going to tear large holes in the EU single market or economy. The solution demanded by the EU is disproportionate and unnecessary, but given the weight of parliamentary numbers and the chance we could have lost Brexit altogether the UK caved in.

So we now find ourselves in a situation where an unworkable protocol is embedded in law. Whether we like it or not a political solution has to be found and that will involve some compromise from the EU, whether they like it or not. Let's be clear, the violence is absolutely wrong, but its not going to go away. A marker has been put down and the loyalist views must be taken into account.
 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
1,636
890
123
65
Well as someone who has long held views that we should not be in the EU, I always thought the divorce would incur as much wrath and rancour as when we went in, just now aided and abetted by 40 years of pent up frustration and wrapped in 40 years of EU rules and legislation. As bad as the separation may be, it will be as nothing compared to the outcry that will follow any attempt to try and take us back in, for have no doubt that will not be on the terms we left. The EU wants to increase budgets, increase union ties, increase military unification, increase regulation and move ever closer to a united states of Europe model as idolised by Macron recently in his view - to rival the USA and China. The genie is out of the bottle and can never be put back in. Despite the EU's overtures to say we would be welcome back, I am not sure. A UK dragged back into the EU with vast numbers of people in opposition does not make for a happy settlement and a harmonious EU and it will only be a matter of time before the ant-EU view becomes resurgent at the ballot box. Remainers - be careful what you wish for. My view is that the democratic process of leaving the EU has to play out for better or for worse - then if it is much worse at some time people will realise and a more settled UK may apply to re-join.
Back to Page 1 James - shall we re run the whole debate again?
 

Toddy

Too much time on my hands
Aug 3, 2013
1,072
381
93
The amount of time you are on this,I think life is passing you by Knutsfordian
 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
1,636
890
123
65
Well during this lockdown you have to take your pleasures wherever you can find them !!

On a more serious note since this thread kicked off in October 2018 (courtesy of Joe Reacher) there have been a number of contributors to the thread with varying political viewpoints that reflect the changing position of Brexit and parliamentary debates over time, but that also reflect the views of ordinary people

Is it possible to extract the content from this thread and replace contributors names with pseudonyms ? There may be some added value here that could be exploited............... Just a thought............
 

Alan M

Administrator
Forum Staff
Jun 24, 2013
3,364
2,292
123
Northern Ireland ... Johnson rejected May's proposed solution, Johnson rejected a 'border in the Irish Sea', Johnson then became PM and ... proposed a border in the Irish Sea, put that to the EU as a solution, negotiated it, agreed it, signed it, praised it to the British public, pushed it without time to consider it properly through Parlt as part of his WA, ran the GE 2019 on his whole brexit deal ... and then decided he didn't like it after all.
Conclusions: Johnson either didn't understand the full implications, or he didn't care enough in his pursuit of personal ambition. or both.

Meanwhile we have Bernard Jenkin still rambling on about technological solutions which he admits still haven't been invented.
 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
1,636
890
123
65
Northern Ireland ... Johnson rejected May's proposed solution, Johnson rejected a 'border in the Irish Sea', Johnson then became PM and ... proposed a border in the Irish Sea, put that to the EU as a solution, negotiated it, agreed it, signed it, praised it to the British public, pushed it without time to consider it properly through Parlt as part of his WA, ran the GE 2019 on his whole brexit deal ... and then decided he didn't like it after all.
Conclusions: Johnson either didn't understand the full implications, or he didn't care enough in his pursuit of personal ambition. or both.

Meanwhile we have Bernard Jenkin still rambling on about technological solutions which he admits still haven't been invented.
I agree with what you say - in part !! But the other side of the coin is that the EU definitely weaponised the NI border within the Brexit negotiations. The UK should have walked away- but couldn't because of the HOC numbers at that time, so we ended up with this protocol based on false premises.
 

Alan M

Administrator
Forum Staff
Jun 24, 2013
3,364
2,292
123
The NI border didn't need "weaponising". It was already an insoluble situation the moment brexit became a reality in 2016. Plenty of people warned about this. That it was never properly addressed from the start is a failure on all sides, but I still think Johnson never really understood the issues and just hoped they'd go away.
 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
1,636
890
123
65
The NI border didn't need "weaponising". It was already an insoluble situation the moment brexit became a reality in 2016. Plenty of people warned about this. That it was never properly addressed from the start is a failure on all sides, but I still think Johnson never really understood the issues and just hoped they'd go away.

I have some sympathy with what you say in terms of Boris's understanding but I think that was all predicated on a free trade agreement that was promised but didn't materialise as originally sold to the UK. Hence in my view it was always going to be fractious. You cannot hang one country for the needs of another so there is no way way Brexit could or should have been stopped for the sake of the Irish border. The impact of an open border on UK/EU trade was negligible and still is. Varadkar walked into an EU trap and as a consequence the whole issue of Ireland has been re-opened. The EU meddled and have been found out.
 

James Wood

I Live Here
Jun 1, 2017
804
386
73
‘Never going to be easy’?

I give you the then Trade Secretary Liam Fox telling us how ‘easy’ striking major trade deals would be if we left the EU.

This has aged as well as a rough bottle on vin-de-plonk!

Another ‘easy’ trade deal doesn’t appear to be so ‘easy’ noe does it?


#brexitreality
 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
1,636
890
123
65
Another ‘easy’ trade deal doesn’t appear to be so ‘easy’ noe does it?


#brexitreality
That we have managed to roll over EU trade deals and negotiate others ( 70? in total) shows that Liam Fox was correct to a large extent.

With regard to the Norway deal - there are reciprocal arrangements between the UK and Norway, so presume that Norway can no longer take fish out of UK waters either. There was a fisheries agreement in March, so obviously something has gone wrong since then


With regards to the UK supertrawler now stuck in Hull - I am not sure that's a bad thing. The UK has complained bitterly about EU supertrawlers, so would like to think we managed our boats in the same way
 

James Wood

I Live Here
Jun 1, 2017
804
386
73
That we have managed to roll over EU trade deals and negotiate others ( 70? in total) shows that Liam Fox was correct to a large extent.

With regard to the Norway deal - there are reciprocal arrangements between the UK and Norway, so presume that Norway can no longer take fish out of UK waters either. There was a fisheries agreement in March, so obviously something has gone wrong since then


With regards to the UK supertrawler now stuck in Hull - I am not sure that's a bad thing. The UK has complained bitterly about EU supertrawlers, so would like to think we managed our boats in the same way
I’m delighted that we’ve managed to roll over 70 EU trade deals. Shows that the organisation that you class as useless was pretty good at striking trade deals. Makes me wonder why we even bothered to leave.....

.....oh yes, that’s it. I forgot. WE’VE GOT OUR FISH BACK! 👍👍😉. Just a pity that it’s now so damned difficult to export them thanks to being outside of the EU😡
 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
1,636
890
123
65
I’m delighted that we’ve managed to roll over 70 EU trade deals. Shows that the organisation that you class as useless was pretty good at striking trade deals. Makes me wonder why we even bothered to leave.....

.....oh yes, that’s it. I forgot. WE’VE GOT OUR FISH BACK! 👍👍😉. Just a pity that it’s now so damned difficult to export them thanks to being outside of the EU😡
But you know the answer James - if it had just been about trade, we wouldn't have left
 

James Wood

I Live Here
Jun 1, 2017
804
386
73
But you know the answer James - if it had just been about trade, we wouldn't have left
Tell that to the fishing communities who have been lied to by Johnson and his cohorts at every step along the way. Betrayed doesn’t do it justice.

Oddly, I’ve not heard anything from John Deadhead today. Normally he can’t help but bang on about little else but fish 🐠😉
 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
1,636
890
123
65
Tell that to the fishing communities who have been lied to by Johnson and his cohorts at every step along the way. Betrayed doesn’t do it justice.

Oddly, I’ve not heard anything from John Deadhead today. Normally he can’t help but bang on about little else but fish 🐠😉
Its not a betrayal though is it? We have more of our quota back and the opportunity to take more in the future. No doubt Norway wants to do the same and nobody was going to get get everything they wanted and its still far better than the CFP - just not as much as they would have liked. Are the fishermen from any country happy? The EU are paying many millions to their fishermen in compensation, so they are not happy either. The acid test would be would fishermen vote to go back in the CFP - I suspect not
 

Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
1,636
890
123
65
Tell that to the fishing communities who have been lied to by Johnson and his cohorts at every step along the way. Betrayed doesn’t do it justice.

Oddly, I’ve not heard anything from John Deadhead today. Normally he can’t help but bang on about little else but fish 🐠😉
not everything as it seems (again)..................

Marine / Failure to strike UK-Norway fishing deal ‘brings long-awaited end to past practice’, local chief says​


Chris Cope
30 April 2021 16:08
150






Copied!


LOCAL fisherman are putting a positive spin on the failure of the UK and Norway to reach an agreement on a fishing deal.
They said past agreements were brokered by the European Union and were heavily skewed against the local pelagic and demersal fleets.
Shetland Fishermen's Association executive officer Simon Collins said the white paper's headline points are precisely what we have insisted on from day one. Shetland Fishermen’s Association executive officer Simon Collins. Photo: Shetland News

Shetland Fishermen’s Association chief officer Simon Collins said: “This bring a long-awaited end to past practice in which the EU used to hand substantial amounts of Scottish quota to Norway largely to the benefit of a single foreign multinational that claimed to be English.”
The chief executive of UK Fisheries Jane Sandell, however, said it is a “very black day for Britain” and claimed that hundreds of fishermen would be left out of work as a result.
Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer also said that fishing communities have been “betrayed by the prime minister” following Brexit.
The lack of a deal means UK fleets will not have access to Norway’s sub-Arctic seas, and Norwegian vessels won’t be able to fish in UK waters.
But in Shetland, the news that the countries are not continuing past agreements has been welcomed.
Collins said that “in practical terms, Norway’s loss of access to our waters this year will remove a substantial presence of their pelagic fleet during the autumn mackerel fishery in particular”.
SFA chairman and whitefish skipper James Anderson added that the inability of Norwegian vessels to fish for demersal stocks in the UK zone would lift the pressure of a highly active gillnet and longliner fleet to the east of Shetland.
“We are convinced that mutually advantageous annual agreements on access and quota transfers can be struck with Norway in the future,” he said.
“But Norway has to understand that we are not going to cave in, [European] Commission-style, to the detriment of Scottish businesses. It is far better to make that clear at the outset, and we are glad that this has been done.
“We appreciate the efforts of the highly influential Scottish negotiators, who worked closely with industry and listened carefully to our concerns throughout four months of very difficult talks.”
The trade talks come following the UK’s exit from the European Union (EU). Norway is not a member of the EU.
Chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation Elspeth Macdonald said: “The failure to reach an agreement on fisheries between the UK and Norway for 2021 is disappointing, especially for our whitefish fleet, as Scottish and UK negotiators worked hard to make a fair and balanced offer to their Norwegian counterparts that would have been to both parties’ advantage for the rest of this year.
“It does however reflect that the UK’s new status as an independent coastal state has fundamentally changed the fisheries landscape in the north-east Atlantic, with both Faroe and Norway deciding not to have agreements with this UK this year, despite now having over-arching fisheries framework agreements with the UK.”