Lockdowns

[Andy]

Ben - it may become the new normal like flu has in the past. Then again, I’m pretty sure that we will eventually come to a point

Certainly. The data from Isreal is promising. Hospitalisation in the vaccinated has become a very rare occurrence. Covid may be around for years to come, but thanks to the vaccine it won’t be something to worry about any more influenza.

With current predictions suggesting all adults in the UK being vaccinated by the end of summer, I’m hopeful that the autumn will be normal for everyone.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Just listening to James O'Brien on LBC (yes I know he's a lefty, Remainer tw@T, but sometimes it just has to be done) and he was trying to dissect the government's approach to quarantine. Just heard a couple of callers give chapter on verse as to how they were going between Dubai and UAE in order to avoid quarantine when they got back to the UK. O'Brien was rather pithy about the loopholes in the tracking and quarantine system, but absolutely no mention of why these slimeballs were on holiday in the middle east in the middle of a pandemic when clearly being on holiday isn't a good reason for travel !!

When will we start to focus on the idiots who insist on travelling and openly break every rule in the book, go on radio to admit to it - but remain completely uncensored. They should be thrown in jail !!

 

[James Wood]

Just listening to James O'Brien on LBC (yes I know he's a lefty, Remainer tw@T, but sometimes it just has to be done) and he was trying to dissect the government's approach to quarantine. Just heard a couple of callers give chapter on verse as to how they were going between Dubai and UAE in order to avoid quarantine when they got back to the UK. O'Brien was rather pithy about the loopholes in the tracking and quarantine system, but absolutely no mention of why these slimeballs were on holiday in the middle east in the middle of a pandemic when clearly being on holiday isn't a good reason for travel !!

When will we start to focus on the idiots who insist on travelling and openly break every rule in the book, go on radio to admit to it - but remain completely uncensored. They should be thrown in jail !!

You’ve gone up in my estimation! Maybe there is hope for you after all. You know that you really want to leave the Dark Side....

 

[Knutsfordian]

You’ve gone up in my estimation! Maybe there is hope for you after all. You know that you really want to leave the Dark Side....

sunny uplands here James

 

[James Wood]

sunny uplands here James

Keep feeding those Unicorns eh...

 

[Alan M]

I hope your "who knew a virus can mutate" comment was sarcastic Ben. It's covered in primary science, and of course it is why there is a new flu vaccine every year. Though it appears Dido Harding missed out on those school lessons that covered how all viruses naturally mutate.

Holidays ... I don't understand how people can blithely go on holiday at the moment either.

Travel restrictions ... still waiting for the govt policy to actually turn into action. And it's far too weak. Too easy for example to fly from SA to Middle East and then on to UK to escape quarantine. Johnson's protestations about 'can't do more because of food/medicine imports' are totally disingenuous though - everyone knows we are talking about individual travel not imports. Half-hearted travel restrictions go with the half-hearted lockdowns though.

Repatriation a year ago - yes, and what did we do with cruise passengers? We bussed them into immediate quarantine. But we left everyone else to make their own way back to UK and didn't impose any restrictions on them at all.

Over 50s by May ... is that 1st May or 31st May? Unclear. But that's a first dose. I can't see full easing of all restrictions till mid-summer, and then the question of vaccination passports/certificates will come into play, as some countries (eg Denmark) are already introducing them. Countries probably won't want to let people in (especially from high-risk places like UK) without proof of vaccination. It's not a guarantee of health, but it's as close to minimal risk as possible.

 

[Knutsfordian]

What I struggle with is why people think its OK to travel abroad, when you can't go from (say) Knutsford to Macclesfield for a walk ! Its bloody obvious that travel abroad shouldn't be happening, but some people manage to concoct a rationale that makes it acceptable. It Isn't !!

I still think that it was impossible to close borders last march with so many Brits abroad. The govt was getting the sh1t kicked out of it for not getting people back soon enough and at that point asymptomatic transmission was not known about either.

Overall though I think people have themselves to blame for a lot of these covid deaths, but discussing that is another place angels fear to tread

 

[James Wood]

What I struggle with is why people think its OK to travel abroad, when you can't go from (say) Knutsford to Macclesfield for a walk ! Its bloody obvious that travel abroad shouldn't be happening, but some people manage to concoct a rationale that makes it acceptable. It Isn't !!

I still think that it was impossible to close borders last march with so many Brits abroad. The govt was getting the sh1t kicked out of it for not getting people back soon enough and at that point asymptomatic transmission was known about either.

Overall though I think people have themselves to blame for a lot of these covid deaths, but discussing that is another place angels fear to tread

Another warning we need to heed!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358059894444851200

 

[Knutsfordian]

I just wish some of these professionals would declare their political interests and intentions - she is no ordinary doctor !!

 

[Ben]

She’s not even taking into account that we now have a hugely successful vaccination programme! Big difference to last time.

Yes Alan, I was being sarcastic. I agree with Rishi Sunak on this. The goalposts seem to be ever changing, from originally vaccinating the over 70s and opening up to the new aim of having all over 50s vaccinated. He rightly pointed out that the whole aim of lockdown was supposed to be to protect the NHS and not drive case numbers down to as low as possible before considering lifting restrictions.

And I don’t agree with you Knutsfordian on blaming people for not following the rules as the biggest reason for our high death toll. Most do and have shown a lot of resilience in enduring almost a year of this. Numbers are coming down fast now, precisely because people are social distancing and following rules. Government policy is largely to blame!

 

[Knutsfordian]

And I don’t agree with you Knutsfordian on blaming people for not following the rules as the biggest reason for our high death toll. Most do and have shown a lot of resilience in enduring almost a year of this. Numbers are coming down fast now, precisely because people are social distancing and following rules. Government policy is largely to blame!

Most people may follow the rules but it only takes a few to spread the virus. Lets take foreign travel as an example -since the introduction of the tier system people should not be leaving their area - especially in tier 3. How many people are travelling from Heathrow which is in a tier 3 area?

"The rules" will never cover every eventuality but people brazenly bend the rules to suit their own circumstances. If you bend the rules accept the consequences ! But folks don't it becomes a fault of the government because the rules are not tight enough ! Bollocks ! People give other people the virus by not social distancing. End Of. People are avoiding track and trace, avoiding quarantine, avoiding social distancing, still trying to get away and holiday - and it's all someone else's fault ? The issue is a complete lack of discipline and personal responsibility

 

[Knutsfordian]

Makes you wonder whether the Derbyshire village of Eyam can teach us anything in these troubles times. Afflicted by the plague the villagers locked themselves away to ensure that the disease didn't spread to other villages. No government rules, no travel bans - just inordinate self sacrifice to save other people

 

[James Wood]

Makes you wonder whether the Derbyshire village of Eyam can teach us anything in these troubles times. Afflicted by the plague the villagers locked themselves away to ensure that the disease didn't spread to other villages. No government rules, no travel bans - just inordinate self sacrifice to save other people

Makes you wonder whether the Derbyshire village of Eyam can teach us anything in these troubles times. Afflicted by the plague the villagers locked themselves away to ensure that the disease didn't spread to other villages. No government rules, no travel bans - just inordinate self sacrifice to save other people

Bloody he’ll Knutsfordian! I know that you Tories like hankering back to “the good old days”, but even for you 1665 is going some!

 

[James Wood]

Most people may follow the rules but it only takes a few to spread the virus. Lets take foreign travel as an example -since the introduction of the tier system people should not be leaving their area - especially in tier 3. How many people are travelling from Heathrow which is in a tier 3 area?

"The rules" will never cover every eventuality but people brazenly bend the rules to suit their own circumstances. If you bend the rules accept the consequences ! But folks don't it becomes a fault of the government because the rules are not tight enough ! Bollocks ! People give other people the virus by not social distancing. End Of. People are avoiding track and trace, avoiding quarantine, avoiding social distancing, still trying to get away and holiday - and it's all someone else's fault ? The issue is a complete lack of discipline and personal responsibility

I’ve witnessed what I would consider sensible people breaking the rules. If people had stuck rigidly to them then how might the virus have spread? As I’ve said countless times before, viruses only spread through human contact. Keep contact low = cases low

 

[Ben]

Most people may follow the rules but it only takes a few to spread the virus. Lets take foreign travel as an example -since the introduction of the tier system people should not be leaving their area - especially in tier 3. How many people are travelling from Heathrow which is in a tier 3 area?

"The rules" will never cover every eventuality but people brazenly bend the rules to suit their own circumstances. If you bend the rules accept the consequences ! But folks don't it becomes a fault of the government because the rules are not tight enough ! Bollocks ! People give other people the virus by not social distancing. End Of. People are avoiding track and trace, avoiding quarantine, avoiding social distancing, still trying to get away and holiday - and it's all someone else's fault ? The issue is a complete lack of discipline and personal responsibility

Knutsfordian, I totally appreciate that some Tory voters would want to believe this idea that people not following the rules is the reason why we’re in this mess. That is a convenient get-out for the government’s poor (putting it mildly) handling of this virus.

Just a few things where the government has failed. I don’t necessarily agree with them all but this is what the likes of Labour and many other folk are saying.

- Repeated evidence of them not locking down when the scientists have said and being too slow to act.
- Lifting restrictions too early
- The tier system which hasn’t worked.
- A failed test, track and trace system
- A lack of PPE to health and social care staff at the start of the crisis.
- Letting people with Covid to go into care homes untested and allowing the virus to spread like wildfire.
- Muddled and contradictory rules and terrible communication. One minute you’re told to go into the office and next you should work from home. Eat out, the don’t eat out. Exercise and then don’t. Stay at home but then you can go out for a million different reasons.
- A total lack of action in controlling borders when countries such as New Zealand and Australia have been on it straight away and cracked down the moment even one case is identified, like Perth recently.
- Total lack of support for people self-isolating, hence the low numbers who comply.
- Failure to prepare for schools re-opening in September, contributing hugely to the second wave.
- We rank as one of the worst countries in the world for deaths and are you seriously saying that is purely down to rule-breakers?

There are many more reasons. You’d really have to have a rose-tinted view of things to think the government have done a good job, Tory voter or not.

 

[Knutsfordian]

Knutsfordian, I totally appreciate that some Tory voters would want to believe this idea that people not following the rules is the reason why we’re in this mess. That is a convenient get-out for the government’s poor (putting it mildly) handling of this virus.

Just a few things where the government has failed. I don’t necessarily agree with them all but this is what the likes of Labour and many other folk are saying.

- Repeated evidence of them not locking down when the scientists have said and being too slow to act.
- Lifting restrictions too early
- The tier system which hasn’t worked.
- A failed test, track and trace system
- A lack of PPE to health and social care staff at the start of the crisis.
- Letting people with Covid to go into care homes untested and allowing the virus to spread like wildfire.
- Muddled and contradictory rules and terrible communication. One minute you’re told to go into the office and next you should work from home. Eat out, the don’t eat out. Exercise and then don’t. Stay at home but then you can go out for a million different reasons.
- A total lack of action in controlling borders when countries such as New Zealand and Australia have been on it straight away and cracked down the moment even one case is identified, like Perth recently.
- Total lack of support for people self-isolating, hence the low numbers who comply.
- Failure to prepare for schools re-opening in September, contributing hugely to the second wave.
- We rank as one of the worst countries in the world for deaths and are you seriously saying that is purely down to rule-breakers?

There are many more reasons. You’d really have to have a rose-tinted view of things to think the government have done a good job, Tory voter or not.

There's no doubt that mistakes have been made and the public enquiry to come will expose all those flaws and responsibilities.

The list above though is straight take from the Piers Morgan list of moans and groans, most of which are unsubstantiated and many also have some quite considerable evidence to support the government's response. They have also failed to take into account the prevailing sentiments at the time - like repatriating people off cruise liners rife with Covid rather than letting stay where they were. How many governments could have survived seeing Brits die on cruise hips abroad !

Lets take the care homes issue as an example. At the point in time that people were released from hospitals back to care homes, asymptomatic transmission was undiagnosed. The real reason for the explosion of Covid within care homes was subsequently found to come from staff working across care homes and not showing any symptoms of covid. Even though the scientists have shown this to be the case, the main stream media persist with this incorrect line about it being the fault of hospitals. The government have refused to get involved about whose fault it is and will argue their case when this pandemic is over.

The bottom line is that people give other people covid. If you used your common sense and stayed at home, you protected yourselves and others. That doesn't need government advice. Even the people of Eyam had the good sense to see that. You can argue the toss about mixed messages, but people really knew what they needed to do, which was stay at home. But they wanted to bend the rules to go on holiday, see their mates etc and bending the rules has consequences. It just goes to show how many people in this country don't accept personal responsibility for their actions and want scapegoats !

The major reason for high infection and mortality rates in this country I think ultimately will come down to foreign travel, because people didn't have the good sense to stay home when they should have done - just like those returning from holidays now and taking diverse routes to avoid quarantine.

You can make excuses why people didn't want to tracked and traced - but it was blatantly obvious what was going on. There were some people who couldn't afford it I have now doubt, but for many its just all about excuses

 

[James Wood]

There's no doubt that mistakes have been made and the public enquiry to come will expose all those flaws and responsibilities.

The list above though is straight take from the Piers Morgan list of moans and groans, most of which are unsubstantiated and many also have some quite considerable evidence to support the government's response. They have also failed to take into account the prevailing sentiments at the time - like repatriating people off cruise liners rife with Covid rather than letting stay where they were. How many governments could have survived seeing Brits die on cruise hips abroad !

Lets take the care homes issue as an example. At the point in time that people were released from hospitals back to care homes, asymptomatic transmission was undiagnosed. The real reason for the explosion of Covid within care homes was subsequently found to come from staff working across care homes and not showing any symptoms of covid. Even though the scientists have shown this to be the case, the main stream media persist with this incorrect line about it being the fault of hospitals. The government have refused to get involved about whose fault it is and will argue their case when this pandemic is over.

The bottom line is that people give other people covid. If you used your common sense and stayed at home, you protected yourselves and others. That doesn't need government advice. Even the people of Eyam had the good sense to see that. You can argue the toss about mixed messages, but people really knew what they needed to do, which was stay at home. But they wanted to bend the rules to go on holiday, see their mates etc and bending the rules has consequences. It just goes to show how many people in this country don't accept personal responsibility for their actions and want scapegoats !

The major reason for high infection and mortality rates in this country I think ultimately will come down to foreign travel, because people didn't have the good sense to stay home when they should have done - just like those returning from holidays now and taking diverse routes to avoid quarantine.

You can make excuses why people didn't want to tracked and traced - but it was blatantly obvious what was going on. There were some people who couldn't afford it I have now doubt, but for many its just all about excuses

Not very often I take the middle ground when it comes to Covid and the responsibilities who might be most ‘at fault’ re the situation over the last year, but there is no doubt that there the government has some major questions to answer re how they have managed this crisis. But also individuals, family groups and friends have a great deal of responsibility for the spread of the virus.

The one huge plus point in all of this is the amazing roll-out and take-up of the vaccination. A truly magnificent effort by ALL involved.

 

[Ben]

The one huge plus point in all of this is the amazing roll-out and take-up of the vaccination. A truly magnificent effort by ALL involved.

We can agree on this bit.

And Knutsfordian, your post is straight from the small state, personal responsibility Conservative manual. Yes there is an element of personal responsibility individuals need to take for this and for their lives in general, but people like yourself would rather the state play no or little part in building society for the better and supporting those who need it. A big crisis such as this requires large state intervention which is what we’ve seen. Therefore the buck lies with the government and their policies have cost more lives than anything else.

The truth is that, yes rule breakers have undoubtedly contributed to the spread of infection, but the government has played the biggest part in the high number of deaths with its repeatedly poor policy decisions on Covid. People are largely acting on what they’ve been told to do and are allowed to do. The vaccine is the exception when it comes to a successful government policy in this crisis.

 

[James Wood]

Not very often I take the middle ground when it comes to Covid and the responsibilities who might be most ‘at fault’ re the situation over the last year, but there is no doubt that there the government has some major questions to answer re how they have managed this crisis. But also individuals, family groups and friends have a great deal of responsibility for the spread of the virus.

The one huge plus point in all of this is the amazing roll-out and take-up of the vaccination. A truly magnificent effort by ALL involved.

Read on Twitter today that the introduction of travel restrictions was akin to “slamming the stable door shut a mere 12 months after the horse bolted, did multiple laps of the track and shat in the winner's enclosure”.

 

[Knutsfordian]

We can agree on this bit.

And Knutsfordian, your post is straight from the small state, personal responsibility Conservative manual. Yes there is an element of personal responsibility individuals need to take for this and for their lives in general, but people like yourself would rather the state play no or little part in building society for the better and supporting those who need it. A big crisis such as this requires large state intervention which is what we’ve seen. Therefore the buck lies with the government and their policies have cost more lives than anything else.

The truth is that, yes rule breakers have undoubtedly contributed to the spread of infection, but the government has played the biggest part in the high number of deaths with its repeatedly poor policy decisions on Covid. People are largely acting on what they’ve been told to do and are allowed to do. The vaccine is the exception when it comes to a successful government policy in this crisis.

You can hardly say that the state has failed to intervene when spending £300 billion supporting families and businesses alike. If that isn't large scale state intervention, I don't know what is. At the same time they have developed testing systems with a capacity of 1 million tests per day, built a new PPE industry from scratch, put vast resources into the development of new vaccines and got them rolled out to 13m people in just over a month. I don't think when all this is said and done that the British public will be as severe with this government as you would like them to be. Yes mistakes made, but also fantastic efforts to bring this country back from the brink.

I disagree with the assertion about repeated poor policy decisions and the public enquiry will tell a different story I am sure. Inn any event time will tell when the enquiry takes place and I think the government has adopted tyhe right approach by refusing to get involved in the tittle tattle over over who could have done what differently and when.

It is inescapable that people transmit covid to other people and that the people in this country have let themselves down in this pandemic. A failure to grasp that nettle really does tell you all you need to know about many people in this country