Lockdowns

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Edge

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The problem is lockdowns are terrible for mental health & lockdowns are needed to prevent Covid spread.

It's lose-lose no matter which way you go about it.
 

Andy

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The problem is lockdowns are terrible for mental health & lockdowns are needed to prevent Covid spread.

It's lose-lose no matter which way you go about it.

No doubt a lose-lose.

Just wish the government and media would consider the option that would result in the smallest loss. Literally.
 

Ben

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All I will say is let’s just hope the vaccines can get us out of this dreadful situation in the coming months. Then we can once again look forward to watching and talking about 1874 and how much better we are than Witton (he jokes) 😂.
 
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Alan M

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The vaccines are not licensed for children ... to answer a point made by Knutsfordian. Nor have the pharma companies done any testing on children to ascertain safe levels of doses etc.
(Mind you, since the govt seem happy to ignore the manufacturers' advice on two-dose vaccine intervals .....)
 

James Wood

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Why don’t you counter the point that people actually make which is the consequences in the long run far outweigh the benefit of these restrictions?

Instead of just pretending that the people raising those concerns are “simple”?
Andy - my point was about the generality and not yourself. You know my view re this and I know yours. Yet people still choose to ignore the advice (including many people I know)
 

Knutsfordian

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Just seen GMB Piers Morgan present a guy called Dave Carr as a an ICU nurse and give him a free hand to slag off the government over handling of the pandemic, without any mention of the fact that he the chairman of the local Unison branch. He has a rightful point of view, but to present him as a nurse without any agenda is completely disingenuous. Typical Piers Morgan back on the telly sh1t stirring to the maximum as usual. When are they going to deliver balanced programming ??????


And then you need ask why there is distrust between public service workers and the government??

Totally outrageous
And Piers Morgan is on again this morning leading the charge against the government and berating all those who fall foul of the rules - but guess who was in a tier 3 lockdown and travel ban , but still went to Antigua for his Christmas hols !! Talk about double standards doesn't come close. The bloody hypocrite !!!!!!
 

Knutsfordian

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The vaccines are not licensed for children ... to answer a point made by Knutsfordian. Nor have the pharma companies done any testing on children to ascertain safe levels of doses etc.
(Mind you, since the govt seem happy to ignore the manufacturers' advice on two-dose vaccine intervals .....)
Yep agreed regarding vaccination of under 11's but they could do teachers etc and my main point was really aimed at secondary schools and universities so would have been better using the term "students"
 

Knutsfordian

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I agree with a lot of what you say. The disproportionate hysteria whipped up by the media has created a hostile environment. The government have been forced to make decisions only taking the next 6 months in to account.

The question is, why are the media seemingly unconcerned about possible 500k plus lives that will be lost over the next few years as a result of these excessive restrictions? Or are they just lining themselves up for another media storm?

500k lives will be lost, and a generation of millions of children will be extremely disadvantaged for life. Is it a price worth paying?

The difference is the hysteria with regard to current death rates and the fact that people can see lines of hospital wards full to bursting and medics making pleas to help them get through this terrible time. The thousands of deaths that follow will pass into the records as cancer deaths etc, not Covid deaths, and there will be less scrutiny.

That said, every morning we have programmes like GMB berating the government for slow action, lack of action, lack of policy, high death rates etc etc. So given that the government has to get itself re-elected they have to address that immediate issue. I think many would agree with you Andy, but it would be a very very brave government to go against the media at this time (and I can't believe no one is taking Morgan to task for his sheer hypocrisy
 

Andy

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I think many would agree with you Andy, but it would be a very very brave government to go against the media at this time (and I can't believe no one is taking Morgan to task for his sheer hypocrisy

Would be brave for a government to go against the media, but that’s what this government did regarding Brexit.

Public trust in the media is low. The media might not like a decision like that, but that wouldn’t necessarily mean that the public would take any notice of the media.

 

Andy

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Andy - my point was about the generality and not yourself. You know my view re this and I know yours. Yet people still choose to ignore the advice (including many people I know)

I wasn’t necessarily aiming it at you, but at general. Currently, especially in the media, anyone raising concerns of the long term impacts of overly draconian measures are straw-manned, categorised as simple or conspiracy loons.

The country is sleepwalking in to a crisis that will dwarf Covid.
 

James Wood

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Would be brave for a government to go against the media, but that’s what this government did regarding Brexit.

Public trust in the media is low. The media might not like a decision like that, but that wouldn’t necessarily mean that the public would take any notice of the media.

Go against the media regarding Brexit?! You surely have got to be kidding here.....

Mail, Sun, Times, Star, Telegraph all vehemently pro Brexit, dog whistle headlines on numerous occasions re “illegals”, Brussels bureaucrats etc, etc, etc
 

Alan M

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The "sleepwalking into a crisis" element of all this is at least in part down to chronic underfunding of health services over the past 10 years. But it is otherwise not due to govt or NHS policy. I don't believe anyone in govt or NHS actively wants to make the situation worse. It can however be exacerbated by poor decision-making (by govt but also by many members of the public who still seem to have the attitude that 'it won't affect me so I don't need to take all these precautions')

There is no easy way out of a situation where thousands of covid patients are admitted to hospitals every day, thus occupying beds, equipment & staff all of which cannot be deployed in two places at once. Of course people with more chronic long-term conditions and those awaiting elective surgery then suffer, but what do you suggest? Telling acute covid patients "sorry, you can't come to hospital because we've got some treatment planned for other patients"? Other parts of hospitals are currently being rapidly repurposed to cope with the surge (even in relatively under-affected Dorset) - that in itself takes up staff, as does the training required for someone normally working in oncology who is asked to fill in as an ICU nurse.
 
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James Wood

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The "sleepwalking into a crisis" element of all this is at least in part down to chronic underfunding of health services over the past 10 years. But it is otherwise not due to govt or NHS policy. I don't believe anyone in govt or NHS actively wants to make the situation worse. It can however be exacerbated by poor decision-making (by govt but also by many members of the public who still seem to have the attitude that 'it won't affect me so I don't need to take all these precautions')

There is no easy way out of a situation where thousands of covid patients are admitted to hospitals every day, thus occupying beds, equipment & staff all of which cannot be deployed in two places at once. Of course people with more chronic long-term conditions and those awaiting elective surgery then suffer, but what do you suggest? Telling acute covid patients "sorry, you can't come to hospital because we've got some treatment planned for other patients"? Other parts of hospitals are currently being rapidly repurposed to cope with the surge (even in relatively under-affected Dorset) - that in itself takes up staff, as does the training required for someone normally working in oncology who is asked to fill in as an ICU nurse.
And that had been my argument all along Alan. If we don’t deal with Covid then it will completely overwhelm the health service and then any elective surgery / other treatment will get pushed back even further into the long grass.

And the best way to help reduce the number of cases so not to swamp our hospitals? It is simple. Limit human interaction. So follow the effin rules and stay at home as much as you possibly can.
 

Ben

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One thing which has caught my eye is Chris Whitty’s comments yesterday that restrictions may have to return next winter once we’re out of this lockdown.

I don’t understand why this would be necessary if the vaccines are rolled out fully and are effective.
 

James Wood

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One thing which has caught my eye is Chris Whitty’s comments yesterday that restrictions may have to return next winter once we’re out of this lockdown.

I don’t understand why this would be necessary if the vaccines are rolled out fully and are effective.
Probably because that although all the testing appears to support the view that vaccination will provide long(ish) term immunity, all scientists worth their salt will never give a 100% answer re the efficacy of a new drug until it has been in general use for some time
 

James Wood

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And that had been my argument all along Alan. If we don’t deal with Covid then it will completely overwhelm the health service and then any elective surgery / other treatment will get pushed back even further into the long grass.

And the best way to help reduce the number of cases so not to swamp our hospitals? It is simple. Limit human interaction. So follow the effin rules and stay at home as much as you possibly can.
Amazing scenes in the HoP today where the inept Williamson said that this year they would be ‘trusting the teachers’ re marking of GCSEs and A Levels. So what was wrong with doing this last year rather than relying on a friggin algorithm?
 
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Alan M

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One thing which has caught my eye is Chris Whitty’s comments yesterday that restrictions may have to return next winter once we’re out of this lockdown.

I don’t understand why this would be necessary if the vaccines are rolled out fully and are effective.

There is (nor can there be) no evidence yet on the period of time for which the vaccine remains effective. Given that all viruses mutate constantly (as shown by recent events) and that scientists are already investigating possible tweaks needed to the current vaccines to address mutations so far, and given that the flu vaccine is administered annually because it changes to focus on the latest strains, it is highly likely that a covid vaccine is going to become a regular event. It would probably therefore be sensible to take appropriate safeguarding measures.
 
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Andy

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The "sleepwalking into a crisis" element of all this is at least in part down to chronic underfunding of health services over the past 10 years. But it is otherwise not due to govt or NHS policy. I don't believe anyone in govt or NHS actively wants to make the situation worse. It can however be exacerbated by poor decision-making (by govt but also by many members of the public who still seem to have the attitude that 'it won't affect me so I don't need to take all these precautions')

I half agree.

I don’t think it’s a case of 100% of underfunding, but also a case of the NHS being so poorly managed.

You can pump all the money you like into something. If it’s run inefficiently, you want get your money’s worth out of it.


“In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person).”
 

Knutsfordian

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Looking at this morning's news, I see there is a push to get teachers up the priority list for vaccination.

I think we need to get away from this divisive reporting and prioritisation. Once the vaccination programme is fully up and running, there is no reason why there cannot be different strands of this programme running in parallel. For example GPs could deal with the old, sick, infirm, at risk people on their registers, whilst at the same time mobile clinics (army medics?) should be dishing out vaccinations at schools and offices where they can dish out (say ) 500jabs in one session. In that way large numbers of people will be vaccinated. It doesn't matter if someone under 30 gets vaccinated before someone over 50. Just get people jabbed !
 
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