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Lockdowns

Whether or not you think Cummings should (or should not) have gone to Durham, the bottom line is that social distancing and reducing social contact is key to solving this modern day plague. It matters not whether you drive 200 miles in your own car, with your own family. So yes I agree with you its was definitely in the "not clever" category of idiocy, but largely not likely to spread the virus. What spreads the virus is going down the pub with your mates, or sharing takeout in the park. Using Cummings as an excuse was always good for selling news time, but otherwise just chaff.

Ps - be careful agreeing with me, your likely to have regrets in the morning when the effect of the night before has worn off :)
Nicki

I once agreed with our Cranford compatriot. But with time, support From my family and Friends, plus the best medical treatment available, I finally got over it. ?
 
Doesn’t feel like a lockdown here in Manchester.

Lots of people about and cars and you can’t blame them. Unlike last time this isn’t really a proper stay at home order. There are lots of reasons why you can go out of the house, whether it’s to go food shopping, meeting a friend for a walk or picnic, going to work (many offices and manufacturing etc has stayed open this time), Education and of course click and collect and takeaways. Many shops fearing the consequence of having to close fully again again are staying open for click and collect and deliveries and classing their products as essential. You can also exercise as much as you want and travel to exercise, there’s no travel ban as such in place.

So no it doesn’t feel like the March lockdown, it feels more like May when we started opening up again. I think the public know a lot more about the virus now and how it spreads and are managing their own risk.

You can’t blame people for wanting to make the most of what they can do in terms of socialising and exercising and shopping. Equally the government rightly are trying to balance public health with the need to keep the economy going and the social fabric of the country and mental health. I think there’s also a lot of fatigue after the whole Cummings saga and lack of confidence in government policy and the often contradictory rules. You can have a walk with a friend but can’t play tennis or golf where one can easily socially distance.

Full lockdowns such as March are no doubt very damaging to the economy and social lives and mental health, so a balance had to be struck so the lockdown itself isn’t more damaging than the actual virus.
 
The trouble is people won't make a decision not to go somewhere because its too busy. For example, Landlords want full pubs but to tackle the virus we need quiet, half empty pubs - peeps need to go out but walk away if somewhere is too busy - but they won't. It's too easy to say it's the government's fault. People don't want to follow rules and be restricted, so they are looking for ways to get round what's required. Shift the blame and do what you want to is the mentality of the majority
 
The trouble is people won't make a decision not to go somewhere because its too busy. For example, Landlords want full pubs but to tackle the virus we need quiet, half empty pubs - peeps need to go out but walk away if somewhere is too busy - but they won't. It's too easy to say it's the government's fault. People don't want to follow rules and be restricted, so they are looking for ways to get round what's required. Shift the blame and do what you want to is the mentality of the majority
I think it’s a mixture of both the public and government.

No doubt there are questions over test, track and trace and the often muddled and contradictory rules, but then yeah there are people interpreting them in the way they see fit and sometimes outright breaking them.

In short, there’s no easy answer but I do think the more arbitrary these rules are, the less likely the public are to comply. People want to be treated like adults.
 
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I think it’s a mixture of both the public and government.

No doubt there are questions over test, track and trace and the often muddled and contradictory rules, but then yeah there are people interpreting them in the way they see fit and sometimes outright breaking them.

In short, there’s no easy answer but I do think the more arbitrary these rules are, the less likely the public are to comply. People want to be treated like adults.
they want a way out - in their heart of hearts they know what they need to do. They are just hiding behind an excuse
 
they want a way out - in their heart of hearts they know what they need to do. They are just hiding behind an excuse
Wouldn’t hurt you to criticise the Tories! ?

Easy to blame the public.
 
Many people are seeking to circumvent any of the measures of this lockdown-lite, but that not only comes from the lack of self discipline in abiding by the basic rules and precautions, but also from the lack of confidence in whether what they are being told to do is best - and that comes from the constant dither and half-hearted measures from a government which should be showing leadership and purpose. There has been little sense in recent months that this govt's heart was in solving the many problems and rectifying the many mistakes. Instead, they spent the whole summer telling people to go on holiday, get back to work, go to restaurants, go to university, bring life back to town centres etc, and "It'll all be over by Christmas", rather than facing up to the genuine prospect that when autumn/winter came we'd be facing a second wave - which was always predicted from the very start. Only in recent weeks has Johnson finally put on something approaching a serious face and tone when addressing the public. Too little too late. Again.
 
Many people are seeking to circumvent any of the measures of this lockdown-lite, but that not only comes from the lack of self discipline in abiding by the basic rules and precautions, but also from the lack of confidence in whether what they are being told to do is best - and that comes from the constant dither and half-hearted measures from a government which should be showing leadership and purpose. There has been little sense in recent months that this govt's heart was in solving the many problems and rectifying the many mistakes. Instead, they spent the whole summer telling people to go on holiday, get back to work, go to restaurants, go to university, bring life back to town centres etc, and "It'll all be over by Christmas", rather than facing up to the genuine prospect that when autumn/winter came we'd be facing a second wave - which was always predicted from the very start. Only in recent weeks has Johnson finally put on something approaching a serious face and tone when addressing the public. Too little too late. Again.
There's no doubt that mistakes have been made, but there has also been a vast amount of swithering amongst scientists, public health, economists et al. The decision makers then have to try and tread a path that doesn't leave the country either overwhelmed by the virus, or totally impoverished with all the negative impacts on health and services that brings too. A huge amount of work has been done between the first and second waves to prepare for this event in terms of drugs, vaccines, PPE etc So it's easy for people to stand on the sidelines shouting "too little too late", when the reality of the situation is there is no obvious right answer. I think that also applies to some of our media experts and commentators, some of whom are not really fighting the fight, but just want to roam the battlefield and bayonet the wounded. I personally think that the government was trying to limp through to vaccine delivery using the tier system, but got bounced into this lockdown under the weight of medical advice, be that right or wrong. But the reason that any of this is necessary is that some individuals are incapable of using common sense. That applies to some MPs as much as it does to ordinary folk, but those incidents can't be used for absolution. We know what we need to do !
 
Another vaccine is on its way. The UK has ordered 5 million doses of the Moderna vaccine which has a 95 per cent effectiveness. More amazing news.

Matt Hancock was a little coy though on whether the lockdown will be extended, saying that it’s too early to say, but that he hopes to return to the tier system.
system.

I really hope he clarifies this asap so MPs can vote on it.
 
You'd hope there would be a clear plan of how/if we exit on the 2nd Dec. or is that too much to ask?
 
You'd hope there would be a clear plan of how/if we exit on the 2nd Dec. or is that too much to ask?
Too much to ask I fear as has been the case throughout.
A suggestion was made by the head of test and trace that the tier system could be beefed up if we exit on Dec 2, especially in tier one areas or maybe a tier 4 (code word for lockdown).
But who knows? Case numbers in the next week or so will be critical to the next path but if he extends it he can expect a significant Tory rebellion. Around 70 MPs are said to be backing the new anti-lockdown Covid Recovery Group.
 
Too much to ask I fear as has been the case throughout.
A suggestion was made by the head of test and trace that the tier system could be beefed up, especially in tier one areas.
But who knows? Case numbers in the next week or so will be critical to the next path but if he extends it he can expect a significant Tory rebellion. Around 70 MPs are said to be backing the new anti-lockdown Covid Recovery Group.
I thought Boris had said we are definitely coming out on 2 Dec and returning to the tier system? But we keep coming back to the social distancing piece. The police have been breaking up parties in Liverpool, so folks are not taking any notice. There's still the chance that the govt could get bounced by the NHS into more restrictions - but it's in everyone's own hands
 
I thought Boris had said we are definitely coming out on 2 Dec and returning to the tier system? But we keep coming back to the social distancing piece. The police have been breaking up parties in Liverpool, so folks are not taking any notice. There's still the chance that the govt could get bounced by the NHS into more restrictions - but it's in everyone's own hands
My understanding is Boris said the restrictions will expire but that’s it. Matt Hancock, today on the other hand, said he hopes to come out of lockdown on Dec 2 but too early to say.
Fair to say we’re getting mixed messages.
 
Whether or not you think Cummings should (or should not) have gone to Durham, the bottom line is that social distancing and reducing social contact is key to solving this modern day plague. It matters not whether you drive 200 miles in your own car, with your own family. So yes I agree with you its was definitely in the "not clever" category of idiocy, but largely not likely to spread the virus. What spreads the virus is going down the pub with your mates, or sharing takeout in the park. Using Cummings as an excuse was always good for selling news time, but otherwise just chaff.

Ps - be careful agreeing with me, your likely to have regrets in the morning when the effect of the night before has worn off :)
I’m kind of going to agree with you again... but will seek counselling and support as suggested by James :)

People using Cummings as an excuse is just utter tosh on their part... but entirely predictable tosh.

There were two mistakes made before the public were given the opportunity to make rubbish excuses. First Cummings thinking he was above the law, second Johnson backing that.

Johnson failed to read the mood of the nation on this one. As it turns out, we had just six more months of Cummings’ influence yet ‘gained’ a finite number of deaths that are absolutely attributable to the decision not to sack him.

Was that worth it? I don’t think so.
 
I’m kind of going to agree with you again... but will seek counselling and support as suggested by James :)

People using Cummings as an excuse is just utter tosh on their part... but entirely predictable tosh.

There were two mistakes made before the public were given the opportunity to make rubbish excuses. First Cummings thinking he was above the law, second Johnson backing that.

Johnson failed to read the mood of the nation on this one. As it turns out, we had just six more months of Cummings’ influence yet ‘gained’ a finite number of deaths that are absolutely attributable to the decision not to sack him.

Was that worth it? I don’t think so.
Well hindsight is a great thing and I also think protecting Cummings was part of a larger plan to protect all ministers and SPADs from resignation calls - the first one down would bring on a few more, so a decision was taken to hold the line. There were more at the time, and have been others since, across the parties and no doubt more to come.
 
Hindsight is wonderful but so is foresight. The public response was very, very predictable, so predictable that it was indeed predicted by many!
 
Hindsight is wonderful but so is foresight. The public response was very, very predictable, so predictable that it was indeed predicted by many!
So what was so predictable? Very very few people are blessed with being able to forcast the future?
 
Cases seem fairly stable around the 20k mark, no massive explosion as predicted and the 33k figure last week seems a one off.

Make of that what you will.
 
Cases seem fairly stable around the 20k mark, no massive explosion as predicted and the 33k figure last week seems a one off.

Make of that what you will.

And that’s with mass testing...

We need to stop testing healthy people to declare them sick, whilst refusing to treat the genuinely sick.
 
And that’s with mass testing...

We need to stop testing healthy people to declare them sick, whilst refusing to treat the genuinely sick.
Cases under 20k for the first time in a while today.

So a sign that inflections are starting to fall and hopefully that trend will continue and we can go back to the tier system.

Deaths are still too high but a drop today down to 529, 69 less than yesterday. Remember though there’s a two week lag between infections and deaths so we’ll see that figure continue to drop if cases keep declining.

We’re doing better than France also, who are recording more than 1,000 deaths in a day.
 
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