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General Election 2017

Who will you be voting for on June 8th

  • Conservative

    Votes: 15 32.6%

  • Labour

    Votes: 21 45.7%

  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 3 6.5%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 3 6.5%

  • Green

    Votes: 1 2.2%

  • Other

    Votes: 3 6.5%
  • Total voters
    46
No Alan - its the pro EU lobby that voted through all the constitutional changes without thinking about any exit plan ever and without consulting the people. We only ever signed up to a Common Market, nothing more. Pro EU MPs have acted far beyond their mandate and deceived the electorate with their connivance with Brussels. Time for out !
 
Ben, you have always used The Guardian as proof of something. It’s as left wing as they come and has one of the lowest circulations of any newspaper.
It’s actually time for the left-wing media to grow up; Brexit is unprecedented, the complexity of it is staggering. No one, Labour or conservative5 was going to sail through it. Left-wingers will only be happy when the will of the people is ignored and we keep having a ‘people’s vote’ until they get the result they want.
 
You rightly highlight the sheer complexity of the process but overlook the sheer complexity of the views across the political spectrum - the "left wing" are equally anti-EU membership, from a different perspective (see Corbyn's views) and that is part of the insoluble conundrum - neither party can hope to please all factions of its support.

As for the Guardian being left-wing, it only appears as such because it stands alongside a raft of unashamedly right-wing newspapers promoting unashamedly right-wing viewpoints.

As for the "will of the people", the sooner that expression is confined to the linguistic bin the better. It is used by people as a knee-jerk soundbite to suggest that the democratic process turned to stone and was frozen in time on 23/6/16 and that all opposition to and criticism of that decision suddenly became illegitimate.

Personally, I am not convinced by arguments for a 2nd referendum - but largely because I do not believe that referendums provide a solution to such questions. 23/6/16 is ample evidence of that. We are a parliamentary democracy and referendums usurp that process. While we should in my view bite the bullet and respect the decision of a referendum which was at best foolhardy, that was a decision to cease membership of the EU. It was not a vote on the nature of our future relationship with what will then be an outside organisation - which is what most of the arguing is now about. These are two separate (but intertwined) issues.
 
I remember during the Rederendum, the point of Nations being forced to have another Vote when it didn’t go the EUs way.

I remember many members of the Remain campaign saying “That won’t happen, we’re different”, two years down the line they’re clambering for another Vote...

What does “a people’s vote” achieve?

- You’ll waste 6 months to get the same outcome again, the economy really won’t thank you for that needless 6 months of uncertainty.

Or

- The Vote goes the other way, then you have two votes both saying different things. Then what do you do? Another Vote? Then you have most likely years of economic uncertainty.

Another Vote would be disasterous. The people’s Vote stance seems to be “we’ve shot ourselves in the foot, so let’s cure it by trying to extend the period of uncertainty”

Has anyone actually thought it through?
 
Kit said:
Ben, you have always used The Guardian as proof of something. It’s as left wing as they come and has one of the lowest circulations of any newspaper.
It’s actually time for the left-wing media to grow up; Brexit is unprecedented, the complexity of it is staggering. No one, Labour or conservative5 was going to sail through it. Left-wingers will only be happy when the will of the people is ignored and we keep having a ‘people’s vote’ until they get the result they want.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say the Guardian is that left-wing. Like Alan said, it just is in the context of a very right-wing dominated press. The Mirror is left-wing and pro-EU and commands a far bigger audience, while right -wing/centrist papers such as The Times, Independent, Economist and Financial Times all backed the remain cause. So not sure what your point is?

And you talk about the left-wing media needing to grow up. Was it not the the Daily Mail who ran that screaming front page with 'Enemies of the people' on it? I'd actually say that if you look at the language being used, it's the right-wing taboloid press that need to grow up rather than using language designed to stifle debate.

What the Guardian and many remainers are saying is not trying to 'ignore the will of the British people', but rather hold the government to account on the way they conduct the negotiations and the 'deal' they secure. People voted 'in' and 'out' during the referendum, not on the terms of any deal. I would like to see parliament given a meaningful vote on the terms of the deal and although, I can see the merits of a second people's referendum, I'm not convinced with that either. Sometimes in a parliamentary democracy (which we are), you should have to let parliament decide.

I find myself being in the strange position of sympathizing with Theresa May a little. No PM would have an easy task conducting these negotiations and it's been made more difficult by the screaming Brexit fanatics who would rather us crash out of the EU with no deal. Their hatred of the EU descends beyond caring about destroying their government or country's economy. They're just in it for their own selfish interests. May comes up with a reasonable compromise in Chequers, flawed, but the start of something that looks like the kind of deal Britain needs, but it still isn't good enough for Davis and Johnson in their fantasy universe. It's good news for everyone that they're no longer involved.

I'd like to see the government go a little further though and secure our place in a customs union like Labour propose, a proposal which has the support of parliament and which I believe would be a fair compromise for the country and the EU.
 
The Gaurdian is only fit for using it to toilet train a puppy.
 
When I was young the Guardian was the Manchester Guardian and supposedly supported the Liberal party. When it went to London it went left. As a Liberal I should read the Guardian but find it too boring and up itself. However, I agree with Ben - when I read that article on Twitter I thought they had it 100% right. It is a massive cock up and no-one has thought it through. If the politicians can't do it we certainly aren't going to do it here!
 
Andy said:
The people’s Vote stance seems to be “we’ve shot ourselves in the foot, so let’s cure it by trying to extend the period of uncertainty”

Has anyone actually thought it through?
Click to expand...

1) more like "... so let's try to cure it by shooting ourselves in the other foot to even things out".
Whatever the result had been, the whole idea of a yes/no referendum on this was doomed to cause more problems than it solved.

2) No. Hence the mess we are in
 
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Perhaps someone could enlighten me and explain why being in the customs union would effectively remove us from the EU? As I understand it, being in the customs union in effect means accepting all EU tariffs and rules, acceptance of the European Courts to arbiter disputes, prevents us trading elsewhere and anchors us to the EU without any representation. Its also highly likely then that we would continue to pay subscriptions to the EU to access the single Market, which we would have to do as we couldn't go elsewhere, so it then follows we have to accept the 4 pillars of the single market - goods, services,capital and labour. Effectively the worst of all worlds keeping us in the EU with no say whatsoever. Its just remaining via the backdoor
 
Which is (I presume) why people have spent 2 years going round in circles trying to come up with an answer which preserves "frictionless trade borders" and preserving an effectively borderless island of Ireland while leaving the EU customs union. Whether that is whatever Labour mean by "a [not "the"] customs union" or whatever the Conservatives mean by their current proposal I have no idea. It is (forgive me repeating myself) a circle which cannot be squared, at least not without some give and take somewhere - whether by the hard wing of the Brexiteers or by the EU negotiators or both.

in other words a mess which is destined to please nobody very much.
 
Right so we are all agreed that the labour policy of staying within a customs union is in effect the same as staying within the EU and does not reflect the spirit of the referendum as they would like to pretend? So why don't all these labour MPs and shadow ministers come out of the long grass and admit its all a play on words and that they are deceiving the electorate? Oh because they want everyone to think there is an easy path to brexit. No there isn't. At least the LibDems are honest - they want us back in the EU and will do almost anything to take us there. Labour are only intent in bringing down the government by any means they can - honestly or dishonestly and their brexit proposition is blatantly dishonest. They are also suggesting that the EU would negotiate around their proposition of "a" customs unions if not "the" customs union. NO they won't. That's why as Alan says above about going round in circles, and hence the government has come up with the option it has ! It also means that labour is being played by the EU to help foster discontent around the government's brexit policy and offerings. Labour need to grow up , grow some balls and respect the referendum decision and try and influence the latest white paper to make it the best they can, rather than offer alternatives that are at best a deception and unobtainable. Their proposition is a lie that many are being suckered into but just don't understand, including their own backbenchers.
 
Labours Policy on Brexit changes all the time depending on what will get them the loudest cheer on that particular instalment of Question Time.
 
The Labour Party isn't the party in power and the tories started this debacle let them deal with it.
I hope that it destroys the tory party for the greater good of the country and its citizens.
 
Exactly, the Tories should worry about getting their own house in order.

Two years on and we're still no closer to knowing what deal if any is going to be secured.

The country is divided, our forum is divided, so is parliament and so is the cabinet of this government with the recent resignations. There was no planning for Brexit before the referendum and nor does there seem to be in the event of a no deal scenario which seems increasingly likely. What hope do we have of securing a deal with the EU when we can't even agree among ourselves?

Fact is it's one big self-inflicted and avoidable mess of the Tories own making. Whether you voted remain or leave, it's really is a deeply unsatisfactory situation.
 
Tony Fallows said:
The Labour Party isn't the party in power and the tories started this debacle let them deal with it.
I hope that it destroys the tory party for the greater good of the country and its citizens.
Click to expand...

Problem is, it’s also destroying the Labour Party. The leader wants out of the EU because he would never be able to follow his deeply socialist agenda within it. He has a party divided and has seen far more resignations that the Tories. The one bargaining tool May has with the EU is that they don’t want to see JC in power so won’t push so hard that May’s government collapses.
You say it’s self-inflicted, Ben. However, David Cameron won a large (and surprising)majority over Ed Milligan’s on a promise of a referendum, people then voted to leave. Recent polls suggest the same numbers would still vote to leave. The Left just can’t accept it and rather than get behind negotiations for their country, they would rather sabotage it with a serious case of sour grapes.
 
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The tories are trying to spend the blame game by involving Mr Corbyn and the Labour Party and no doubt the EU Commission for not agreeing to their every demand of cherry picking the economic benefits of EU membership.

The tory party are responsible for this debacle, its consequence's and the subsequent impoverishment of this Nation and its people and no-one else.
 
Blaming the opposition (be that the political opposition or the 'Remain' electorate) for the mess of the past two years of failure to plan is like blaming the band for the Titanic sinking.

Captain Cameron steered the SS UK onto the referendum iceberg, but unlike Captain Smith he then jumped overboard and swam away.
 
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