Cummings, Johnson and this whole shit show

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Knutsfordian

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Dec 18, 2014
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“There will always be instances where people don't behave as they should, but is a government as whole corrupt? I don't think so.”

Not corrupt? Well explain away why Jenrick helped a major Tory donor (Desmond) to avoid paying £ms towards key public infrastructure so that he could develop an area in one of the most deprived areas in the country? Jenrick and Berry marking their own homework so that their constituencies could get some wonga from the latest regeneration initiative. Cheadle - a Tory marginal ranked 535th out of 542 towns in the pecking order receiving dosh through the same initiative ahead of many more deserving areas. The whole PPE fiasco. And you say that they are not corrupt!

I have said before that you can find instances where some people have not been at their best, but that doesn't mean that a whole government is corrupt. There are many questionable actions from across all parties that could be used to cast doubt on honesty and integrity, but I still want to believe that on the whole most of our politicians act with best intent for most of the time
 
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James Wood

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I have said before that you can find instances where some people have not been at their best, but that doesn't mean that a whole government is corrupt. There are many questionable actions from across all parties that could be used to cast doubt on honesty and integrity, but I still want to believe that on the whole most of our politicians act with best intent for most of the time
So do I, but it has become increasingly difficult to do so over the past few months.
 

Phil Bradley

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Holmes Chapel
First up the deliberate bullying of people in any walk of life, at any age, in any environment is abhorrent and I agree should be met with the sternest of actions. But is that really what happened here? Did Priti Patel set out to bully civil servants ?

The reports that I have seen indicate that the civil servants concerned were not doing their jobs it says ....The home secretary has also become - justifiably in many instances - frustrated by the Home Office leadership's lack of responsiveness and the lack of support she felt in the Department for International Development (Dfid) three years ago. In civil service speak that is as damning as it gets about civil servants not doing their jobs as the minister requested. Which they are obliged to do. No doubt she berated them for their lack of action - and none of that was challenged at the time or taken up with her individually. The resulting broadside from Patel had the effect of upsetting some individuals. So what we have here is public servants not doing their jobs, getting a bollocking and some time later crying about it. They should have been sacked. Only after the event have the accusations of bullying arisen. There is no doubt that across the Civil Service there have been instances where government policy has been deliberately obstructed, bringing minsters and civil servants into conflict. In such instances the bidding of ministers is paramount and it is no wonder we see a number of senior civil servants being removed from post in the recent past.

One other thing to note - John McDonnell was on about sending civil servants back to school to learn about socialist economics, such was the push back he was expecting from the Civil Service. So whilst the emphasis has been on Patel and her "unintentional" breach of ministerial codes, the real focus should be on whether we have a civil service that is fit for purpose. There is also a huge question mark over the civil service conducting its' own internal reviews. Did we really expect Sir Alex Allen to really go after his recalcitrant non performers? The demands made of people at top levels (and the report indicates these were senior civil servants) of any organisation are immense these days, and if you want to play with the big boys (and be in the company of ministers) you need to put your big boy pants on, learn how to handle yourself and get on with it.
I don't think bullying is a conscious decision but more of a behaviour.
 
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Knutsfordian

Too much time on my hands
Dec 18, 2014
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So do I, but it has become increasingly difficult to do so over the past few months.
And in normal times there would have been different outcomes. I think Boris has set his stall out to protect his team at all costs, which I can understand. If he allows minsters to be picked off for pandemic failures and then others for normal business failures, the cabinet would be a revolving door. I think he is holding the line at a huge personal costs because he believes he will be justified in the end
 

Ben

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Can’t believe some defend Patel.
An apology from her isn’t good enough. An independent report has found Patel broke the ministerial code and was a bully.

There is no excuse for her not being sacked. In any other workplace she would be rightly shown the door for her unacceptable behaviour. The fact she’s seen as a pivotal part of Johnson’s government is why she’s got away with it. Appalling.
 
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Knutsfordian

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I don't think bullying is a conscious decision but more of a behaviour.
Most bullying it is quite a deliberate and planned act. I don't think this is is. It sounds like it is in the moment and driven by civil servants who are anything but that ! Don't get me wrong being verbally abused at any level is not what you want - but sometimes when the chips are down and people don't deliver on their responsibilities then it happens. These guys are paying for high stakes which could see a whole government fall and our civil servants are not squeaky clean when it comes to undermining ministers and leaking sensitive decisions. If they don't play by the rules then they can't hide behind them either
 
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Knutsfordian

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Dec 18, 2014
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Can’t believe some defend Patel.
An apology from her isn’t good enough. An independent report has found Patel broke the ministerial code and was a bully.

There is no excuse for her not being sacked. In any other workplace she would be rightly shown the door for her unacceptable behaviour. The fact she’s seen as a pivotal part of Johnson’s government is why she’s got away with it. Appalling.
No she wouldn't - I can vouch for that from personal experience. If you think every board room bun fight ended in a sacking your having a laugh

I can't believe no one on here thinks the civil servants should be sacked for obstructing an elected government
 

Ben

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No she wouldn't - I can vouch for that from personal experience. If you think every board room bun fight ended in a sacking your having a laugh
Well if that is the case it really does tell you everything that is wrong with some workplace cultures, namely that bullying people is seen as being necessary to get the job done. If you can’t not bully people you can’t do your job properly and shouldn’t be doing it.
We teach children not to bully in schools, so what kind of example is this setting by letting Patel off? Whether you’re Tory or Labour or none, surely we should all agree that bullies are the lowest of the low and should be shown the door if they’ve been found to be a bully.
Whether it’s letting Cummings off for breaking lockdown rules or keeping a bully in cabinet, Johnson’s government has shown itself for the moral vacuum it is.
 

Knutsfordian

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Well if that is the case it really does tell you everything that is wrong with some workplace cultures, namely that bullying people is seen as being necessary to get the job done. If you can’t not bully people you can’t do your job properly and shouldn’t be doing it.
We teach children not to bully in schools, so what kind of example is this setting by letting Patel off? Whether you’re Tory or Labour or none, surely we should all agree that bullies are the lowest of the low and should be shown the door if they’ve been found to be a bully.
Whether it’s letting Cummings off for breaking lockdown rules or keeping a bully in cabinet, Johnson’s government has shown itself for the moral vacuum it is.
What it does tell you is its a very fine line between doing whatever it takes to get something over the line, where businesses may fail if it doesn't happen, and treating people with kindness and respect. If you had been there you would know what I mean.

Not everything in life is so simple that we can all be jolly friends all the time. Sometimes life is hard and you need to dig really deep to see something through to the end. If you expect it to be different then you are going to be disappointed. Life is hard and brutal and the higher up the greasy pole you climb the worse it gets and to be honest I don't think it will change any time soon. there's too much at stake
 

Ben

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What it does tell you is its a very fine line between doing whatever it takes to get something over the line, where businesses may fail if it doesn't happen, and treating people with kindness and respect. If you had been there you would know what I mean.

Not everything in life is so simple that we can all be jolly friends all the time. Sometimes life is hard and you need to dig really deep to see something through to the end. If you expect it to be different then you are going to be disappointed. Life is hard and brutal and the higher up the greasy pole you climb the worse it gets and to be honest I don't think it will change any time soon. there's too much at stake
If being against bullying makes me idealistic, then I am.
There is never any excuse for bullying in any workplace or life in general. The fact Patel still has a job speaks volumes for this governments attitude towards it.
 
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Knutsfordian

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Aah well Ben if life were that easy

In a generation where being bullied at school was the norm, getting hammered was taking a beating walking across Danefields, sorting out scores on a rugby pitch was common , and being tied up and left down the end of the school grounds to miss lessons was not out of bounds, current levels of bullying are nothing new.

Obvious bullying is easy to deal with, but there are shades of grey. in senior jobs taking flack is the norm and dealing with angry execs is par for the course. Its not bullying, its life. if you can't handle yourself then its not the job for you. There are too many senior civil servants who cant handle the hassle and they need to be moved on
 
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Ben

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Aah well Ben if life were that easy

In a generation where being bullied at school was the norm, getting hammered was taking a beating walking across Danefields, sorting out scores on a rugby pitch was common , and being tied up and left down the end of the school grounds to miss lessons was not out of bounds, current levels of bullying are nothing new.

Obvious bullying is easy to deal with, but there are shades of grey. in senior jobs taking flack is the norm and dealing with angry execs is par for the course. Its not bullying, its life. if you can't handle yourself then its not the job for you. There are too many senior civil servants who cant handle the hassle and they need to be moved on
We’ll agree to disagree. Bullying is wrong plain and simple.
Don’t need a life lesson from you.
 

Alan M

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To repeat, the bullying investigated was of junior civil service staff, not of those in senior positions. This was made clear when Putnam resigned months ago and has been backed up in the report (which didn't even interview him - because the investigators were blocked from speaking to him). Apart from the oft quoted shouting and swearing it also appears to include throwing files at people at their desks. If she can't do the job without throwing such tantrums then she's in the wrong job.
 

Knutsfordian

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If being tied down and left down at the end of the school grounds to miss lessons is normal behavior suggests Knutsfordian is an Eton man.its the kind of thing Cameron .Osbourne.Johnson and their Toff mates got up to as members of the Bullingdon Club. Any suggestion that bullying is character building is beyond me.
never said that it was acceptable or character building just that it happened
 

Knutsfordian

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Dec 18, 2014
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To repeat, the bullying investigated was of junior civil service staff, not of those in senior positions. This was made clear when Putnam resigned months ago and has been backed up in the report (which didn't even interview him - because the investigators were blocked from speaking to him). Apart from the oft quoted shouting and swearing it also appears to include throwing files at people at their desks. If she can't do the job without throwing such tantrums then she's in the wrong job.
well how about sacking the civil servants who wouldn't do their jobs, then there wouldn't have been a problem?

Oh and a certain Gordon Brown was well known for having a short temper, swearing and throwing things but don't let that get in the way of a good moral outrage eh !!
 
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toddyb

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Dec 23, 2014
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How can you possibly make excuses for any form of bullying Knustfordian(unbelievable)or is it just Tory bullying that's OK.I went to Rudheath Secondary Modern in the 1950s and was learning the Violin at school two of the older lads tried to bully me,they both ended up with black eyes,one of them got a Violin to the back of his head.To this day if I was to see either of them I would be tempted to give them another black eye.