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Cummings, Johnson and this whole shit show

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I am disappointed at this decision. It seems a rushed and far from transparent decision.
But you are deluded if you think that the Tory party is squeaky clean on the issue of racism and discrimination.
And it now appears that the man at the head of the Tory party and our government condones bullying of Civil Servants by his minister
 
And it now appears that the man at the head of the Tory party and our government condones bullying of Civil Servants by his minister
I’m left wondering if “unintentionally breaching the ministerial code” is akin to breaking international law in a “limited and specific manner”? ?
Says it all to me about Johnson’s judgement and this desperate, desperate, totally discredited government.
And let’s not forget that Patel has plenty of previous.....
 
What absolutely shouldn’t have happened is for HM Government to have rapidly engaged the ‘usual suspects’ In the private sector who had diddly squat experience in public health and infection management whist completely ignoring the experienced, trained and capable public health professionals that are employed by most LAs. The private sector resources should have been used to support these experts, not put in charge.
yep wouldn't disagree with that James, but there must have been some decision making around the approach you suggest. I think what you fail to recognise (and apologies in advance here if I underestimate you) is that vast amounts of deals in London are done on a network basis. Partners of top consultancy firms wining and dining with permanent under secretaries and the like. Briefing consultancies on what the ministers are looking for and the best approach to secure success. It is why the wine bars of the City are full every afternoon. It's not idle piss heads, it is the business of London being conducted in front of your eyes. it has been the same for centuries. It works. Deals get done and London grows ever larger on the back of it. Briefing papers are discussed, pros and cons worked through and the final submissions penned in draft. Its London doing business.

I wouldn't underestimate how powerful these consultancies are. They recruit the top graduates, hone their skills and give them cutting edge to outgun the public servants. They can muster armies of people from across the globe at short notice and give the solutions a scale that cannot be met in the private sector where there isn't that much spare capacity. It all comes at a cost - but in a pandemic its get it done, pay later !
 
I’m left wondering if “unintentionally breaching the ministerial code” is akin to breaking international law in a “limited and specific manner”? ?
Says it all to me about Johnson’s judgement and this desperate, desperate, totally discredited government.
And let’s not forget that Patel has plenty of previous.....
so a few top civil, servants at the top of their game can't stand being shouted and sworn at by Pritti Patel. Ye gods what sheltered lives they have lived! How many of us have been involved in senior management meetings when tempers have flared and unwise words said ? And these guys at the head of the civil service cannot take it on the chin? What utter rubbish. Promoted beyond their level, made to do things they didn't want to do and toys thrown out of prams. Many of them needed moving on years ago in a civil service that's lost sight of obeying its political masters. These guys are not first division they are non league at best
 
Sorry Ben - but its not going to happen unless Labour take on the SNP and win those seats !
Yes, it will be tough for Labour without Scotland but not impossible.

Corbyn came close in 2017.
 
Yes, it will be tough for Labour without Scotland but not impossible.

Corbyn came close in 2017.
not really - without SNP support he was way off. the winning party must have at least 326 seats to have an overall majority and Corbyn had 262. People think Labout did OK in 2017, but the reality was even then it was a massive defeat but well spun by Labour supporters. Its not impossible - but its getting that way.

Labour need to get a grip - their real enemies are not the Tories, its the SNP. Without those seats in Scotland, Labour might get into power once in a hundred years or less!
 
not really - without SNP support he was way off. the winning party must have at least 326 seats to have an overall majority and Corbyn had 262. People think Labout did OK in 2017, but the reality was even then it was a massive defeat but well spun by Labour supporters. Its not impossible - but its getting that way.

Labour need to get a grip - their real enemies are not the Tories, its the SNP. Without those seats in Scotland, Labour might get into power once in a hundred years or less!
No reason why a left-wing Lab/SNP coalition couldn’t be formed? Labour’s best route into government maybe. Assuming we don’t see independence.

Think Starmer deserves a bit of credit for wiping out a 20 point Tory lead in the polls. He seems to have got a grip!
 
Ben, that can only be a one off. The price of SNP support will be IndyRef2.

With regards to Starmer wiping out a 20 point lead - that's of no consequence right now. He needs to maintain that for 4 years and his mantle is slipping already. He is not the messiah you hope for. Labour really need a top performer, a special one. Someone who will break the mould and that's not in sight right now. They need to be in opposition, but above all they need to have a leader that wins by wooing voters to the cause, not just regurgitating the old anti-Tory, class warfare, your all corrupt ****s spin. Its just diatribe, old school, pre-war socialist clap trap. They need to set out a platform in the style of Obahma - "Yes We Can" or Blair with Education, Education, Education. Just trolling out the same old bumph about Pritti Patel's a bully, the government's corrupt, your all tory bastards, brexit is sh1te isn't going to win hearts and minds. When L:abour recognise that, they MAY be on the path to salvation
 
Ben, that can only be a one off. The price of SNP support will be IndyRef2.

With regards to Starmer wiping out a 20 point lead - that's of no consequence right now. He needs to maintain that for 4 years and his mantle is slipping already. He is not the messiah you hope for. Labour really need a top performer, a special one. Someone who will break the mould and that's not in sight right now. They need to be in opposition, but above all they need to have a leader that wins by wooing voters to the cause, not just regurgitating the old anti-Tory, class warfare, your all corrupt ****s spin. Its just diatribe, old school, pre-war socialist clap trap. They need to set out a platform in the style of Obahma - "Yes We Can" or Blair with Education, Education, Education. Just trolling out the same old bumph about Pritti Patel's a bully, the government's corrupt, your all tory bastards, brexit is sh1te isn't going to win hearts and minds. When L:abour recognise that, they MAY be on the path to salvation
Think you’re being a little disingenuous towards Starmer.

From what I’ve seen he’s hardly put a foot wrong since being leader. Corbyn being reinstated was out of his hands as there are others pulling the strings in the party.
He’s refused to give Corbyn the whip, so not much else he can do on that one.

Yes there are four years until the next election but whether it’s in the polls or in who people see as being the next PM, Starmer is edging it. Even Fraser Nelson, of the right-wing spectator magazine, said Starmer is reminding him of a young Tony Blair the way he’s dealing with Labour’s militants, on Question Time last night.

I suspect a few Tory voters, maybe yourself included are shuffling a little nervously at the thought that Labour finally have a competent leader again. On Starmer’s showing at PMQs, Boris must dread that every week as his record is routinely torn apart.

We’ll wait and see what happens in Scotland regarding another IndyRef. Labours fortunes will no doubt be markedly better with Scotland being in the UK, so I do take your point on that.
 
Without electoral reform it'll be same old same old. Governments chosen by a handful of marginals. Any system which gives any party 80 seat majority on 43% of the vote is a broken system. But turkeys don't vote for Christmas (unless it's wrapped in sparkly Vote Leave wrapping paper)
 
yep wouldn't disagree with that James, but there must have been some decision making around the approach you suggest. I think what you fail to recognise (and apologies in advance here if I underestimate you) is that vast amounts of deals in London are done on a network basis. Partners of top consultancy firms wining and dining with permanent under secretaries and the like. Briefing consultancies on what the ministers are looking for and the best approach to secure success. It is why the wine bars of the City are full every afternoon. It's not idle piss heads, it is the business of London being conducted in front of your eyes. it has been the same for centuries. It works. Deals get done and London grows ever larger on the back of it. Briefing papers are discussed, pros and cons worked through and the final submissions penned in draft. Its London doing business.

I wouldn't underestimate how powerful these consultancies are. They recruit the top graduates, hone their skills and give them cutting edge to outgun the public servants. They can muster armies of people from across the globe at short notice and give the solutions a scale that cannot be met in the private sector where there isn't that much spare capacity. It all comes at a cost - but in a pandemic its get it done, pay later !
“it works” you say. FFS, if you think that this is things working, then you have a very skewed view of your definition of things going well.

And I think that you do under estimate me. I’ve worked with consultants all my professional life. Many have been very good, most middling, some awful. In many ways very similar to those people I worked with during my time in the public sector.
Fully agree with your point that the private sector can bring resources at short notice and on flexible terms, but leading on matters they have f**k all knowledge about rather than being used to support the public sector experts has been an absolute cock up
 
Ben, that can only be a one off. The price of SNP support will be IndyRef2.

With regards to Starmer wiping out a 20 point lead - that's of no consequence right now. He needs to maintain that for 4 years and his mantle is slipping already. He is not the messiah you hope for. Labour really need a top performer, a special one. Someone who will break the mould and that's not in sight right now. They need to be in opposition, but above all they need to have a leader that wins by wooing voters to the cause, not just regurgitating the old anti-Tory, class warfare, your all corrupt ****s spin. Its just diatribe, old school, pre-war socialist clap trap. They need to set out a platform in the style of Obahma - "Yes We Can" or Blair with Education, Education, Education. Just trolling out the same old bumph about Pritti Patel's a bully, the government's corrupt, your all tory bastards, brexit is sh1te isn't going to win hearts and minds. When L:abour recognise that, they MAY be on the path to salvation
Knutsfordian - but the government is corrupt. Patel is a bully. The pandemic has again underlined the huge divide between the haves and have nots in our society. Ask yourself why Covid has hit areas like Oldham, Bolton, Liverpool, Rochdale et al more than other areas.
Poor quality, high density housing, historically economically disadvantaged areas with poor educational outcomes, limited investment in key infrastructure over decades. Result? Huge amounts of people living from hand to mouth, with little prospect of getting out of this cycle of despair.

And during the past 50 years, which party has been in charge for all but 16? The Tories.

Yet here we are in 2020, with the U.K. one of the richest nations on earth yet we still have many millions living in sub standard accommodation, reliant on food banks, being paid poverty wages whist the elite cream off £Ms in off shore tax havens and dodgy deals.
 
“it works” you say. FFS, if you think that this is things working, then you have a very skewed view of your definition of things going well.

And I think that you do under estimate me. I’ve worked with consultants all my professional life. Many have been very good, most middling, some awful. In many ways very similar to those people I worked with during my time in the public sector.
Fully agree with your point that the private sector can bring resources at short notice and on flexible terms, but leading on matters they have f**k all knowledge about rather than being used to support the public sector experts has been an absolute cock up
Well its why London is one of the world's greatest financial centres. It does work. Deals get done, finance provided, mergers mooted etc. Its a different way of life and one from the outside of the city is hard to understand. It is not perfect far from it. Has always had problems with regulatory control and audit, but it steams on regardless and provides huge amounts of benefit for the rest of the UK

I don't know how many experts from the public service sector were mobilised to be part of the Pandemic projects, or why they weren't mobilised. No doubt those questions will be answered in due course, but I suspect there were questions asked and risks assessed

With regard to the standard of consultants, I agree all are not perfect by any means, but by and large the senior people know what they are doing and tend to be at the sharp end of the scale

Apologies for underestimating you James, never intend to denigrate anyone else's talents
 
Without electoral reform it'll be same old same old. Governments chosen by a handful of marginals. Any system which gives any party 80 seat majority on 43% of the vote is a broken system. But turkeys don't vote for Christmas (unless it's wrapped in sparkly Vote Leave wrapping paper)

Its not just about changing a voting system though is it? Changes to voting systems will require all sorts of constitutional change, as would the abolition of the House of Lords. A start point may be some constitutional congress to deliver a new and updated constitution for the UK, but as you correctly point out many people are content with what we have and would vigorously oppose a move which may have many unintended consequences.
 
Knutsfordian - but the government is corrupt. Patel is a bully. The pandemic has again underlined the huge divide between the haves and have nots in our society. Ask yourself why Covid has hit areas like Oldham, Bolton, Liverpool, Rochdale et al more than other areas.
Poor quality, high density housing, historically economically disadvantaged areas with poor educational outcomes, limited investment in key infrastructure over decades. Result? Huge amounts of people living from hand to mouth, with little prospect of getting out of this cycle of despair.

And during the past 50 years, which party has been in charge for all but 16? The Tories.

Yet here we are in 2020, with the U.K. one of the richest nations on earth yet we still have many millions living in sub standard accommodation, reliant on food banks, being paid poverty wages whist the elite cream off £Ms in off shore tax havens and dodgy deals.

So first of all then James just ask yourself why if this country is so sh1te why have Labour or any of the other parties so consistently failed to get elected?

There are massive faults and inequalities between various groupings of people and between regions, which the Labour Party should have been able to formulate policies around - but they haven't done that consistently well enough to get elected. The snatch back of the party to the hard left has been a disaster and after an election last year Labour should have won, they still can't bring themselves to realise what it is they need to do.

Are the government corrupt? No they are not - at least no more than any other previous government . There will always be instances where people don't behave as they should, but is a government as whole corrupt? I don't think so. I have no doubt ministers have told the civil service to cut out red tape, reduce process and get on with it during this pandemic. They may also have over ridden civil service advice, but all those decisions will be scrutinised afterwards.

Is Patel a bully? Really? Some guy at the top of his game and in charge of an empire the size of the Home Office can't handle a ruck with Patel? Your having a laugh. FFS these people are supposed be First Division. Can you really imagine the Chief Exec of a top 100 company spitting his dummy out after being called out by the Chairman of the Board. Big egos, tempers flare, words get said and they might get removed from office - but bullying? Not a chance and if the guy couldn't stand being told to get on with what the minister wanted he should just have walked anyway. Just being a bright mind doesn't cut it these days. The top civil servants need to be top managers too - and lets face it, they get paid enough !! I also think Boris' s support for Patel fits with his decisions regarding other ministers. He has steadfastly refused to sack anyone during this pandemic for making mistakes.
 
So first of all then James just ask yourself why if this country is so sh1te why have Labour or any of the other parties so consistently failed to get elected?

There are massive faults and inequalities between various groupings of people and between regions, which the Labour Party should have been able to formulate policies around - but they haven't done that consistently well enough to get elected. The snatch back of the party to the hard left has been a disaster and after an election last year Labour should have won, they still can't bring themselves to realise what it is they need to do.

Are the government corrupt? No they are not - at least no more than any other previous government . There will always be instances where people don't behave as they should, but is a government as whole corrupt? I don't think so. I have no doubt ministers have told the civil service to cut out red tape, reduce process and get on with it during this pandemic. They may also have over ridden civil service advice, but all those decisions will be scrutinised afterwards.

Is Patel a bully? Really? Some guy at the top of his game and in charge of an empire the size of the Home Office can't handle a ruck with Patel? Your having a laugh. FFS these people are supposed be First Division. Can you really imagine the Chief Exec of a top 100 company spitting his dummy out after being called out by the Chairman of the Board. Big egos, tempers flare, words get said and they might get removed from office - but bullying? Not a chance and if the guy couldn't stand being told to get on with what the minister wanted he should just have walked anyway. Just being a bright mind doesn't cut it these days. The top civil servants need to be top managers too - and lets face it, they get paid enough !! I also think Boris' s support for Patel fits with his decisions regarding other ministers. He has steadfastly refused to sack anyone during this pandemic for making mistakes.
The fact is that the report found that Patel had demonstrated the same pattern of behaviour across 3 departments, not just one. Cummings also demonstrated similar behaviours. Not clamping down on such behaviour leads to it becoming endemic in an organisation. Monkey see, monkey do.
Just ask yourself for a moment what example this sets to young children, teenagers and young adults. To those who bully it will encourage them to continue with such behaviour hopefully in the mistaken view that they will get away with it. To those on the end of bullying what does it say when a minister of state has been found guilty of bullying by an independent inquiry but no sanction has been taken against her by the man at the top who has told fellow Tory MPs to “protect the Prittster” ??. A disgrace
 
So first of all then James just ask yourself why if this country is so sh1te why have Labour or any of the other parties so consistently failed to get elected?

There are massive faults and inequalities between various groupings of people and between regions, which the Labour Party should have been able to formulate policies around - but they haven't done that consistently well enough to get elected. The snatch back of the party to the hard left has been a disaster and after an election last year Labour should have won, they still can't bring themselves to realise what it is they need to do.

Are the government corrupt? No they are not - at least no more than any other previous government . There will always be instances where people don't behave as they should, but is a government as whole corrupt? I don't think so. I have no doubt ministers have told the civil service to cut out red tape, reduce process and get on with it during this pandemic. They may also have over ridden civil service advice, but all those decisions will be scrutinised afterwards.

Is Patel a bully? Really? Some guy at the top of his game and in charge of an empire the size of the Home Office can't handle a ruck with Patel? Your having a laugh. FFS these people are supposed be First Division. Can you really imagine the Chief Exec of a top 100 company spitting his dummy out after being called out by the Chairman of the Board. Big egos, tempers flare, words get said and they might get removed from office - but bullying? Not a chance and if the guy couldn't stand being told to get on with what the minister wanted he should just have walked anyway. Just being a bright mind doesn't cut it these days. The top civil servants need to be top managers too - and lets face it, they get paid enough !! I also think Boris' s support for Patel fits with his decisions regarding other ministers. He has steadfastly refused to sack anyone during this pandemic for making mistakes.
It really does continue to baffle me why the Tories keep getting elected given their record when they are in charge. Some fault clearly lies with the opposition parties for not getting their message across. But the biased right-wing print press does also play a major role in swaying the views of voters.

And as for senior Civil Servants not being able to “have a ruck” with Patel, I think that therein lies the problem. Yes, sharp words, Strong demands and challenges are made at all levels of business and government. It goes with the territory. But the very fact that the inquiry was launched in the first instance suggests to me that Senior Civil Servants In 3 departments had been subject to unacceptable behaviour by Patel on an ongoing basis.
 
So first of all then James just ask yourself why if this country is so sh1te why have Labour or any of the other parties so consistently failed to get elected?

There are massive faults and inequalities between various groupings of people and between regions, which the Labour Party should have been able to formulate policies around - but they haven't done that consistently well enough to get elected. The snatch back of the party to the hard left has been a disaster and after an election last year Labour should have won, they still can't bring themselves to realise what it is they need to do.

Are the government corrupt? No they are not - at least no more than any other previous government . There will always be instances where people don't behave as they should, but is a government as whole corrupt? I don't think so. I have no doubt ministers have told the civil service to cut out red tape, reduce process and get on with it during this pandemic. They may also have over ridden civil service advice, but all those decisions will be scrutinised afterwards.

Is Patel a bully? Really? Some guy at the top of his game and in charge of an empire the size of the Home Office can't handle a ruck with Patel? Your having a laugh. FFS these people are supposed be First Division. Can you really imagine the Chief Exec of a top 100 company spitting his dummy out after being called out by the Chairman of the Board. Big egos, tempers flare, words get said and they might get removed from office - but bullying? Not a chance and if the guy couldn't stand being told to get on with what the minister wanted he should just have walked anyway. Just being a bright mind doesn't cut it these days. The top civil servants need to be top managers too - and lets face it, they get paid enough !! I also think Boris' s support for Patel fits with his decisions regarding other ministers. He has steadfastly refused to sack anyone during this pandemic for making mistakes.
“There will always be instances where people don't behave as they should, but is a government as whole corrupt? I don't think so.”
So first of all then James just ask yourself why if this country is so sh1te why have Labour or any of the other parties so consistently failed to get elected?

There are massive faults and inequalities between various groupings of people and between regions, which the Labour Party should have been able to formulate policies around - but they haven't done that consistently well enough to get elected. The snatch back of the party to the hard left has been a disaster and after an election last year Labour should have won, they still can't bring themselves to realise what it is they need to do.

Are the government corrupt? No they are not - at least no more than any other previous government . There will always be instances where people don't behave as they should, but is a government as whole corrupt? I don't think so. I have no doubt ministers have told the civil service to cut out red tape, reduce process and get on with it during this pandemic. They may also have over ridden civil service advice, but all those decisions will be scrutinised afterwards.

Is Patel a bully? Really? Some guy at the top of his game and in charge of an empire the size of the Home Office can't handle a ruck with Patel? Your having a laugh. FFS these people are supposed be First Division. Can you really imagine the Chief Exec of a top 100 company spitting his dummy out after being called out by the Chairman of the Board. Big egos, tempers flare, words get said and they might get removed from office - but bullying? Not a chance and if the guy couldn't stand being told to get on with what the minister wanted he should just have walked anyway. Just being a bright mind doesn't cut it these days. The top civil servants need to be top managers too - and lets face it, they get paid enough !! I also think Boris' s support for Patel fits with his decisions regarding other ministers. He has steadfastly refused to sack anyone during this pandemic for making mistakes.
Not corrupt? Well explain away why Jenrick helped a major Tory donor (Desmond) to avoid paying £ms towards key public infrastructure so that he could develop an area in one of the most deprived areas in the country? Jenrick and Berry marking their own homework so that their constituencies could get some wonga from the latest regeneration initiative. Cheadle - a Tory marginal ranked 535th out of 542 towns in the pecking order receiving dosh through the same initiative ahead of many more deserving areas. The whole PPE fiasco. And you say that they are not corrupt!
 
Knutsfordian, it was not that Patel was bullying the senior civil servants. The charges were brought in relation to her behaviour towards *junior* civil servants across various departments. The man at the top in the home Office was merely the person in the position to field their complaints and represent them in public. He wasn't even consulted as part of the investigation - it investigated direct with the victims.

If an independent enquiry led by a man appointed by Johnson under the auspices of a ministerial code signed off by Johnson concludes that bullying took place, then the appropriate action should follow. It is not appropriate for someone who has not even been involved in the investigation to override the conclusions of that investigation and choose to reject it. But I cannot say that it surprises me in the slightest, and that is the most depressing aspect of the whole affair.

There is no place for bullying in the workplace or school or anywhere else. Anything which seeks to sweep an incident (or in this case a trail of incidents over several years in different departments) merely encourages bullies everywhere to continue to act as they do and convinces victims everywhere that any complaints that they raise will be ignored (which of course then leads to further bullying of anyone who has dared to raise their head above the parapet). The parallels with cases of domestic abuse, and indeed rape, are manifold, and it is attitudes and approaches such as this which have led to victims nationwide suffering in silence. It is shameful.
 
Knutsfordian, it was not that Patel was bullying the senior civil servants. The charges were brought in relation to her behaviour towards *junior* civil servants across various departments. The man at the top in the home Office was merely the person in the position to field their complaints and represent them in public. He wasn't even consulted as part of the investigation - it investigated direct with the victims.

If an independent enquiry led by a man appointed by Johnson under the auspices of a ministerial code signed off by Johnson concludes that bullying took place, then the appropriate action should follow. It is not appropriate for someone who has not even been involved in the investigation to override the conclusions of that investigation and choose to reject it. But I cannot say that it surprises me in the slightest, and that is the most depressing aspect of the whole affair.

There is no place for bullying in the workplace or school or anywhere else. Anything which seeks to sweep an incident (or in this case a trail of incidents over several years in different departments) merely encourages bullies everywhere to continue to act as they do and convinces victims everywhere that any complaints that they raise will be ignored (which of course then leads to further bullying of anyone who has dared to raise their head above the parapet). The parallels with cases of domestic abuse, and indeed rape, are manifold, and it is attitudes and approaches such as this which have led to victims nationwide suffering in silence. It is shameful.


First up the deliberate bullying of people in any walk of life, at any age, in any environment is abhorrent and I agree should be met with the sternest of actions. But is that really what happened here? Did Priti Patel set out to bully civil servants ?

The reports that I have seen indicate that the civil servants concerned were not doing their jobs it says ....The home secretary has also become - justifiably in many instances - frustrated by the Home Office leadership's lack of responsiveness and the lack of support she felt in the Department for International Development (Dfid) three years ago. In civil service speak that is as damning as it gets about civil servants not doing their jobs as the minister requested. Which they are obliged to do. No doubt she berated them for their lack of action - and none of that was challenged at the time or taken up with her individually. The resulting broadside from Patel had the effect of upsetting some individuals. So what we have here is public servants not doing their jobs, getting a bollocking and some time later crying about it. They should have been sacked. Only after the event have the accusations of bullying arisen. There is no doubt that across the Civil Service there have been instances where government policy has been deliberately obstructed, bringing minsters and civil servants into conflict. In such instances the bidding of ministers is paramount and it is no wonder we see a number of senior civil servants being removed from post in the recent past.

One other thing to note - John McDonnell was on about sending civil servants back to school to learn about socialist economics, such was the push back he was expecting from the Civil Service. So whilst the emphasis has been on Patel and her "unintentional" breach of ministerial codes, the real focus should be on whether we have a civil service that is fit for purpose. There is also a huge question mark over the civil service conducting its' own internal reviews. Did we really expect Sir Alex Allen to really go after his recalcitrant non performers? The demands made of people at top levels (and the report indicates these were senior civil servants) of any organisation are immense these days, and if you want to play with the big boys (and be in the company of ministers) you need to put your big boy pants on, learn how to handle yourself and get on with it.
 
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