- Jul 28, 2013
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Remainers are just as guilty of that, let’s be honest
Lockdowns
- Thread starter Ben
- Start date
Remainers are just as guilty of that, let’s be honest
- Jun 1, 2017
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No problem with having a plan Ben. It would be an abrogation of duty for HM Government not to. We have to get back to normal - whatever the new normal May look like - at some time.
As long as the decisions are based on the scientific data rather than the ‘headline grabbing’ stunts and PR lead sound bites we’ve seen thus far, then it will have my support.
As Knutsfordian says, the first and second spikes were 100% caused by widespread human interaction. Relaxing of the restrictions when the R No was still high in parts of the country was part of the reason, as was the ‘Eat out to help out’ initiative.
What will make the situation vastly different this time around is the vaccination programme which is going extremely well.
But my concern is that, once again, Boris and his right- wing looney vocal cabal will want to roll things back too quickly leading to a third wave (although even if it does happen, I doubt that it will be anywhere near as bad as the first two due to the roll out of the vaccine campaign)
- Jun 1, 2017
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It didn’t need any hindsight to see what was happening in Italy and Spain around this time last year. It was being beamed into our homes every day of every hour.
But what did Boris do?
He skipped the first five COBRA meetings on the matter, failed to bring in lockdown ASAP (along with complementary border restrictions), let the Cheltenham festival go ahead & 3000 Spanish fans into Liverpool, failed to have sufficient PPE.
Even when he finally ‘did’ something, he went on the usual PR / Photo-shoot to the hospital in Kettering where he waffled on about meeting patients with Covid and shaking hands with them.
Such wonderful leadership from our great Churchillian PM.
- Jun 1, 2017
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And just hours after my post we have this. “His (Johnsons) comments come after Health Secretary Matt Hancock predicted "a happy and free Great British summer".”
So already this bunch of buffoons are raising hopes and expectations weeks ahead of the date they said they would provide an update re the planned roll back of restrictions. Do they never learn?
- Dec 18, 2014
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The impression I get James is they are trying to set an expectation of summer holidaying home in the UK , but to a certain extent I agree with you.
It's far too early to set any sights on what might be possible this year - and I suspect holidays abroad are a fantasy - or at least should be !
I would be thinking about re-ordering the school year, cancelling the 6 week break and trying to make the most of what's left of this year. Teachers would go into meltdown, but for one year only it's needed and should happen. Maybe it has been floated with the unions behind closed doors and kicked out - I don't know, but it is clear it will not be a normal summer
It's far too early to set any sights on what might be possible this year - and I suspect holidays abroad are a fantasy - or at least should be !
I would be thinking about re-ordering the school year, cancelling the 6 week break and trying to make the most of what's left of this year. Teachers would go into meltdown, but for one year only it's needed and should happen. Maybe it has been floated with the unions behind closed doors and kicked out - I don't know, but it is clear it will not be a normal summer
- Thread starter
- #586
Why can’t we have a normal summer this year though? I don’t get it.
The current lockdown is already working well in driving down cases and deaths, as it would seem is the highly successful vaccination programme which has vaccinated nearly 10 million people.
Once all over 50s are vaccinated by the spring, I really don’t see any justification for continued restrictions. For me, the goalposts do seem to be changing a lot.
The current lockdown is already working well in driving down cases and deaths, as it would seem is the highly successful vaccination programme which has vaccinated nearly 10 million people.
Once all over 50s are vaccinated by the spring, I really don’t see any justification for continued restrictions. For me, the goalposts do seem to be changing a lot.
- Dec 18, 2014
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It all depends on what you think normal is.
Despite all the crap about "eat out to help out" being the cause of the 2nd wave - it wasn't. It was foreign travel (again!). Travel is the scourge of all fights against pandemics. So really the chance of foreign holidays this year should be nil. Despite the pressure from Ryanair, Jet2, Easyjet et al people should stay home. For the life of me I cannot understand why people think it is OK to travel anywhere abroad in a pandemic. It is basic stuff.
If we just accept we are staying home, then bars pubs, restaurants should open this summer and some normality may be within reach. (with schools open all summer!!!)
Despite all the crap about "eat out to help out" being the cause of the 2nd wave - it wasn't. It was foreign travel (again!). Travel is the scourge of all fights against pandemics. So really the chance of foreign holidays this year should be nil. Despite the pressure from Ryanair, Jet2, Easyjet et al people should stay home. For the life of me I cannot understand why people think it is OK to travel anywhere abroad in a pandemic. It is basic stuff.
If we just accept we are staying home, then bars pubs, restaurants should open this summer and some normality may be within reach. (with schools open all summer!!!)
- Thread starter
- #588
Normal to me is before March 2020, but if social distancing and mask wearing is necessary for a bit longer, then so be it.
I think we should be doing everything possible to ensure that this lockdown is the last one we’re in. With the vaccines being rolled out quickly, there should be no need for them.
On summer normality, if last summer was a Covid-secure normal, I see no reason why this year with vaccines should be any different with pubs and restaurants open etc... and families allowed to mix. It will be interesting to see what happens with foreign travel, and I know they’re tightening up on borders and new variants, but there were summer holidays abroad last year and I think there will be this year. I’m not convinced they caused the second wave and I think it was the schools.
Your idea of schools staying open throughout the break is a good one and makes sense, although I’m not sure if the unions would allow that. It’s probably a no-goer. What do you make of Labour’s teacher vaccination plan?
I’ll make the point also that even if vaccines don’t reduce transmission that much (remains to be seen), if they significantly reduce serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths to a degree that the NHS can cope, then there wouldn’t be a need for any restrictions. Cases wouldn’t be as much of a worry as they are now and won’t lead to serious illness and deaths. We tolerate thousands of flu deaths as a society a year, let’s remember that and I think those calling for zero Covid are kidding themselves. It’s not going to happen, this virus is endemic and here to stay and we must learn to live with it!
I was under the impression that the vaccines would be an end to this pandemic and the more I’m reading, the less I’m starting to think that! These lockdowns and restrictions can’t go on forever. We have to go back to normal at some point.
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- Jun 24, 2013
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In truth very few people have been "vaccinated". 9 million have received a first dose of vaccines which according to the manufacturers give a degree of protection (particularly against fatality for most) but do not give comprehensive protection until a couple of weeks after the second dose (and that's on data for the Pfizer one which states the greatest efficacy is with 3-6 week interval, not 12 weeks, as unilaterally followed in this country - though the AZ one appears more receptive to a longer interval). It will be mid to late summer before this round of vaccinations is nearing completion, particularly as we will soon be at the point where administering the 2nd dose can't be delayed any longer. Then of course we get into the probable cycle of annual booster injections.
People need to face up to the prospect of this being a slow emergence from restrictions if society as a whole, and the NHS in particular, is to cope properly with it all. Otherwise, we'll still have hospitals full of covid patients - and though they may only be moderately ill they are still then taking up space and preventing other NHS functions. Unfortunately there are a lot of "I'm all right, I won't be badly affected itf i get it" people who are willing to ignore all the warnings and evade any sense of wider social responsibility. Like the ones caught out holidaying on the Austrian ski slopes today, or the many people still flying off on holiday in the past few weeks.
But again, although it was clear what was happening with travel, although it was clear too many people were ignoring "guidance" or "advice", although it was clear that mutant forms of the virus were still gaining entry into the country, although it was clear that the vast majority on their return were not isolating as required, although it was clear that there was no system actually in place to oversee this requirement, the government failed to act until far too late, and then watered the whole restrictions/quarantine down as well.
Yes, ultimately people are responsible for their own actions, but when it becomes obvious that people cannot exercise this responsibility responsibly the govt should be stepping in to lay down the law in the interests of the nation's health.
People need to face up to the prospect of this being a slow emergence from restrictions if society as a whole, and the NHS in particular, is to cope properly with it all. Otherwise, we'll still have hospitals full of covid patients - and though they may only be moderately ill they are still then taking up space and preventing other NHS functions. Unfortunately there are a lot of "I'm all right, I won't be badly affected itf i get it" people who are willing to ignore all the warnings and evade any sense of wider social responsibility. Like the ones caught out holidaying on the Austrian ski slopes today, or the many people still flying off on holiday in the past few weeks.
But again, although it was clear what was happening with travel, although it was clear too many people were ignoring "guidance" or "advice", although it was clear that mutant forms of the virus were still gaining entry into the country, although it was clear that the vast majority on their return were not isolating as required, although it was clear that there was no system actually in place to oversee this requirement, the government failed to act until far too late, and then watered the whole restrictions/quarantine down as well.
Yes, ultimately people are responsible for their own actions, but when it becomes obvious that people cannot exercise this responsibility responsibly the govt should be stepping in to lay down the law in the interests of the nation's health.
- Dec 18, 2014
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I think there is more we agree on than disagree here, but a couple of points
Large numbers of people complain about borders being closed, but travel abroad themselves as shown by photographs of airports and typified by the hypocrisy of Piers Morgan. Even in this winter season Brits have been determined to have their skiing holiday, but when threatened with lockdown in their resorts have just "disappeared", with absolutely no care for potentially spreading the disease across the continent. For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would travel during a pandemic except for the direst emergency, but clearly some people say the words, but then do the deed anyway, using private planes where required. Not only do we spread the virus in this country, but also those that are being visited, so even if we are vaccinated we shouldn't be travelling anyway and especially where countries don't have the same levels of protection in place. In my view there should be no holidays abroad this summer (i would have schools up and running anyway). Where the Govt does step in, what we see is that people are not be prepared to conform - hiding behind movements to deny Covid, refuse vaccines etc. Some people inexplicably don't want this to stop because they want chaos. There is a huge element here that people are not accepting their responsibilities and we have done this to ourselves regardless of government intervention.
With regard to closing borders, it is practically impossible. As a trading nation we will always have lorry drivers, boat crews, airline staff and essential workers etc crossing borders. So borders can be restricted to reduce risk, but it will never be completely eliminated. At the start of last year there were millions of Brits abroad, they could never be excluded. Remember the pictures of stranded cruise ships and Brits dying abroad with Covid, interviews with passengers on TV - it was endless. No government could close borders in those circumstances no matter what the Sage advice - and yet even though we knew it was happening we still had peeps trying to go in their holidays no matter what. Unbelievable really!!
I don't think there will ever be a point, for years to come, where vaccinations are "complete". There will be endless rounds of booster injections and annual injections like flu. Whether that means international travel will ever get back to what it was in the near future is open to question.
So what does that mean for coming out of lockdown? I think if we can get schools open, open shops and hospitalityand have a staycation, with some social distancing in place, that may be as good as it may get
- Jun 1, 2017
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- Jul 28, 2013
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I didn’t agree with everything in this post, just most things ?
Still worried about the long lasting collateral damage we face.
Don’t worry, I still believe that when it comes to lockdowns the medicine does more harm than good.
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- Thread starter
- #594
I’ve not actually reviewed my stance on this. I’ve cautiously supported this lockdown on the basis that the vaccination programme was being rolled out and that would allow for normality.
I’m now quickly realising that previous promises of spring and summer normality are no longer necessarily on the cards and that various variants (who knew a virus mutated) will be used as an excuse to keep us in lockdowns.
Cases continue to decline at a fast rate (Boris can only call it levelling off), deaths are coming down, and the vaccine programme is going very well, yet all we hear about is the South Africa variant! Why?
These restrictions and lockdowns can’t go on forever and I’ll repeat that. I believe that the British public will only tolerate so much of this.
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- Jun 1, 2017
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I too am worried about the long term impacts of the lockdowns. But what was the alternative?
Let the virus run rampant?
This would have resulted in tens of thousands of additional deaths as the NHS would have been completely swamped. The impact of this on elective and emergency treatment would have been far, far greater than that which will occur as a result of lockdowns.
- Jun 1, 2017
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“Cases continue to decline at a fast rate (Boris can only call it levelling off), deaths are coming down, and the vaccine programme is going very well, yet all we hear about is the South Africa variant! Why?”
Ben - the news about falling cases, hospitalisations and deaths are broadcast every night on the main TV news bulletins along with the (very welcome) news about increases in vaccination rates and totals.
And as for the new variants, what do you want the broadcasters to do? Ignore them? They are a concern therefore worthy of being reported. But of the coverage I have seen, as many if not more has been about the excellent news re vaccination as opposed to the new strains
- Thread starter
- #597
Yes James but when does this ever end? If we keep chasing these new variants, we’re going to be doing this for an awful long time. From what I’ve seen the SA variant doesn’t seem to be causing too many problems in SA.
I’d love to know the answer to how and when this all ends.
- Thread starter
- #599
Andrew Hayward, on Sage, said this today which is very encouraging. Let’s hope!
“The UK should be basically back to normal by summer. When the most vulnerable are vaccinated, over 50s, we will see a significant return to normality. We will see a phased opening up and more or less back to normal by summer.”
“The UK should be basically back to normal by summer. When the most vulnerable are vaccinated, over 50s, we will see a significant return to normality. We will see a phased opening up and more or less back to normal by summer.”
- Jun 1, 2017
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