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BREXIT THE MOVIE

Blackie said:
I said the government never lie as a generalisation not in particular reference to a web site that contains a list, but if you feel the need to mention it as such....be my guest ;).
I'm sure it raised a laugh from you man Paul! :confused:.
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I think you mean Phil?;)
 
paul said:
paying 350 million quid each week
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The 'Leave' campaign people have been told by the Electoral Commission to stop using that misleading and inaccurate figure - and to be fair to them, they have - but it has lodged itself in the public consciousness alongside Boris's bananas (or should that read 'Boris is bananas'? ;))
 
Blackie said:
Alan, everyone is going to vote on what is relevant to them.
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Totally agree.

Blackie said:
I don't travel abroad because I have dogs, therefore, cheaper air fares and the likes you mentioned are totally irrelevant to me.
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Fair enough. Air fares is a minor issue though in the wider scheme of things.

Blackie said:
The strain the extra population will cause on the country, nhs and housing situation will affect myself, and more importantly to me, my children and future grandchildren.
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That's an opinion. And one I'm not sure I agree with.

Blackie said:
I am interested to see how you think we are going to cope with what is alleged projected increase of over 5m by 2030?
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The key word there is "alleged". That says it all. That's the fear factor at work.
 
Alan M said:
The 'Leave' campaign people have been told by the Electoral Commission to stop using that misleading and inaccurate figure - and to be fair to them, they have - but it has lodged itself in the public consciousness alongside Boris's bananas (or should that read 'Boris is bananas'? ;))
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And everything the "Remain" side say is true, accurate and honest? :rolleyes: Don't make me laugh Alan, their scaremongering tactics are disgraceful. They have offered absolutely nothing of real substance or anything positive to convince me we would be better off staying in. Their tactics alone have pushed me to the exit door.
 
Blackie said:
Alan, everyone is going to vote on what is relevant to them.
I don't travel abroad because I have dogs, therefore, cheaper air fares and the likes you mentioned are totally irrelevant to me.
The strain the extra population will cause on the country, nhs and housing situation will affect myself, and more importantly to me, my children and future grandchildren.
I am interested to see how you think we are going to cope with what is alleged projected increase of over 5m by 2030?
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Brilliant post this one mate, bang on the money. :scarf:
 
paul said:
And everything the "Remain" side say is true, accurate and honest? :rolleyes: Don't make me laugh Alan,
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Check back through my posts and you will see that I have several times complained about the antics on both sides - the Remain people (largely DC and GO) are throwing one 'worst-possible-scenario' statistic after another at people and claiming it to be the 'only possible scenario'. The Leave people are (probably rightly) rubbishing all these stats but failing to shed any light (ie plausible details) onto their leap into the dark. No wonder so many are undecided.
 
And now we have that devious individual, Bliar, coming out of the woodwork to convince us to vote "IN" !!
If ever there was a reason to vote "OUT" then this is it, in other words "What is in it for that vile apology of for human race !!.
 
If that is what you wish to base your vote on, rather than all the serious arguments behind all the crazed rhetoric (on both sides) then there's not much more to be said. I prefer to think that his stance on all of this is pretty irrelevant.
 
Irrelevant !!, Not based on any comment that this proven liar and con man spouts, but on what I believe to be more factual to me and not what MAY happen as is the "alleged" "IN" claim. But again wth all the "bull" given out by them then it makes morer sense to vote "OUT". !.

I did pass on your comment to two friends of mine, (Korean veterans) who each lost a Son in Iraq, their comments, not for publishing !!.
 
I am still of the opinion (and it is only my opinion) that the views of an ex-PM on the EU referendum carry little weight with me.

Any ex-PM. I do not in any way subscribe to Churchill's view that "We must build a kind of United States of Europe", though many of his ideas around the future of Europe were well-grounded (yet now firmly rooted in history)
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

Or the views of an ex-Chancellor (Lawson).
Or issues not related to the EU.
 
I think what Frank is saying (apologies if I'm not right on this Frank) is that Mr Blair is largely to blame for the situation we now find ourselves in as it was he that got us very entangled in the EU, his current views hold little weight with me too but that is a fact. During Mr Blair's reign as PM I did not vote, and had little interest in the EU, but at that time I believed that there must be some sense and good in the EU vision he constantly banged on about and sold to us all. Although I didn't have any specific view either way I do, however, remember wondering what he was getting us into as up until that point in my life I had always thought of myself as a Brit, not a European. But I trusted him on it.

I was not born in 1973 or 1975 when we joined the EEC, I feel that I personally have never had any other choice during my lifetime but to be part of the EU that Mr Blair, without doubt, led us further into. And I feel that the EU is currently not a fair democracy, some would say it is not a democracy at all. I have many other reasons as to why I think we would be better off out of the EU but perhaps you can at least see why I am aggrieved with the situation we are currently in and why I am not a fan of Mr Blair (or his barrister wife).
 
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The "Single European Act" was under Thatcher, as was the Maastricht Treaty (which introduced the idea of a political union). The Treaty of Lisbon in 2007 under Blair & Co is the only significant EU treaty which has sought to redress the democratic balance a bit by giving greater powers to the Parliament (though that treaty also had other perhaps less desirable features).

Successive governments across Europe are to blame for the democratic deficit in the EU, in that there has been a collective lack of any will to make the organisation more democratic, only a will to enlarge it ever more. But then while we (and electorates across the EU) continue to elect national governments (or MEPs) who don't see a need for change, only for expansion, then we get what they decide is good for us.

It is the one major aspect of the EU which I am happy to moan about non-stop. Too many vested interests on high intent on preserving the structure. But I am of the view that leaving it and carping from the sidelines isn't going to change it either. You can only change things from within, though Cameron's attempt to do so was a bit of a damp squib.

Those vested interests (the realist in me says) are not going to look kindly on a nation which votes to leave. They are not going to say "oh ok, you don't want to pay all that money and be bound by all those regulations - that doesn't matter, we will still treat you as if you were part of the club and give you all the advantages and deals you crave". Apart from anything else, it would send completely the wrong signal to other member states who might be wavering - and for the vested interests that is not good. I'm not defending that, I agree it is wrong, but it is (I think) what would happen.

Incidentally, we rightly moan about the lack of democracy in the EU, with decisions taken by the Council of Ministers based often on proposals by the unelected EU Commissioners and merely discussed and rubber-stamped by the MEPs in the EU parliament, but there's not that much difference to the way our own national democracy works. We elect our national govt, which then appoints unelected advisors (Alan Sugar recently for example) and members of the House of Lords, laws are proposed by the "government" (usually just a select few senior Ministers, and in this case with the support of 24% of the electorate) and often enacted without any Parliamentary discussion, let alone a vote. We elect local governments, but when they propose things that the national govt doesn't like, a Minister steps in and overrules/vetos it.
 
As always Alan I bow to your superior knowledge on the EU. But you will never convince me that democracy is better for us where decisions made by the EU Council of Ministers in Brussels, where clearly we have very little say despite being one of the biggest contributors, than if we had control of our country and destiny in our own hands. I simply do not buy that and never will do. How long do you think it would be before there is fair democracy in the EU (if ever)? There might well be one day but I'm personally not willing to risk our country falling to its knees until (if?) it ever arrives. Whilst I agree that Brexit is a leap into the dark so is remaining in the EU on many levels too.
 
I had to look the treaties up! ;)

I wouldn't dream of trying to convince anyone that the EU version of democracy is anything other than a sham. I just wonder how much more control "we" would have if we exited. The vested interests (whether those in the 'in' camp or the 'out' camp) will make sure we know our place.

The referendum (like the Scottish one last year) is a rare chance for people to express their views on a single issue (unlike the "best fit" or "least worst" options at a general election), but it is still being spoilt by the main people on both sides indulging in slogans and soundbites. How are people meant to make an informed decision when confronted with "If we leave the economy will collapse" versus "If we stay in we'll be overrun by foreigners"?

The Swiss are forever having referendums on policy decisions. But I wouldn't wish to be like the Swiss! They have to keep guns in their wardrobes, for a start. ;)
 
paul said:
I think what Frank is saying (apologies if I'm not right on this Frank) is that Mr Blair is largely to blame for the situation we now find ourselves in as it was he that got us very entangled in the EU, his current views hold little weight with me too but that is a fact. During Mr Blair's reign as PM I did not vote, and had little interest in the EU, but at that time I believed that there must be some sense and good in the EU vision he constantly banged on about and sold to us all. Although I didn't have any specific view either way I do, however, remember wondering what he was getting us into as up until that point in my life I had always thought of myself as a Brit, not a European. But I trusted him on it.

I was not born in 1973 or 1975 when we joined the EEC, I feel that I personally have never had any other choice during my lifetime but to be part of the EU that Mr Blair, without doubt, led us further into. And I feel that the EU is currently not a fair democracy, some would say it is not a democracy at all. I have many other reasons as to why I think we would be better off out of the EU but perhaps you can at least see why I am aggrieved with the situation we are currently in and why I am not a fan of Mr Blair (or his barrister wife).
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You are 100% right, Paul, let us also not forget that the Asylum problem that Europe currently face is a direct result of Bliar and his attempt to have a Multi culteral Britain. It should be recalled that his fellow cohorts, Straw etc, admitted that they and others, were sent into Europe to inform ALL that no visa requirements were required to enter the UK. Treacherous beyond belief ! !.
 
Asylum is not a problem but a right.
Or do you mean the refugee problem?

If so, I am having trouble seeing the refugee crisis on the eastern borders of the EU and the large numbers now in Germany, Austria Scandinavia etc as being due to any attempts to "make" Britain multi-cultural.

We were multi-cultural long before 1997.
 
Am well aware of the differences "having been around the block a few times!, AND went to school !, but according to a quote by a German poitician of " most of the claims are for Asylum as they seem to know what is more benificial for them ", need I say more.

Already multi- cultural yes to some degree !, but not to the extent of the open borders we now have had thrust upon us by those in power.

Alan, You have your point of view clearly from articles read !,but for me I am a confirmed "Little Englishman" and very proud to have been born British and the more travellinng I have done around the World confirms this fo me !.

I believe that if the "in" vote is succesful then it will be a sad day for the true "Brits" and one that will be regretted for year to come by those betrayed !!.

Anyway enough of this game of "ping-pong", I have many E-mails to reply to from around the World so sugget that you get back to the "In" articles in which you seem to have many to hand !!.

Please note that this is my last mail on this subject.
 
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